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Post by Silwyna on Oct 4, 2008 19:44:02 GMT 1
Or, they won't ever explain why Mary's friends died ( a la Dean's bleeding eyes).
I've recently saw a CW Connect interview with Kripke where he said that he knows the story about Dean's bleeding eyes, but that he's tempted to never tell it, just to drive the fans crazy *g*
But I hope we'll at least get an explanation for Mary's friends. I would be disappointed if they just forget about that.
To him, he's using his powers for good, but the angels are concerned, so I do think there's a chance that the evil could take over.
I agree. Also about Ruby's involvement ... she is a demon, even if she still remembers what it was like to be human. So Sam should be careful in trusting her.
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 4, 2008 20:47:15 GMT 1
You know how in home Mary gets rid of some evil spirit by destroying herself? That spirit was after Sam. And it couldn't have been the Poltergeist because they already got rid of that. Maybe this spirit had something to do with Mary's friends dying?
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Post by yor on Oct 5, 2008 2:36:03 GMT 1
I think the Darker Sam is funny, as he even admits he's trying to be like Dean.. He needed to tough up.
Also, is he killing the host bodies? The one we saw was already damaged from the attack...
(I'm feeling strong pangs of defend Sam... What's that about? I think... because Dean's mytharc was SO pathetic and anti-climatic, there is no choice in the show but for Sam to go totally evil... That disappoints me... Some evil... fight the evil within, yes... but not completely evil... Bugs me. I NEEDED Dean to have a definite place.)
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Post by mick on Oct 5, 2008 2:41:54 GMT 1
I NEEDED Dean to have a definite place.Me, too! More and more I think Jared is going to get his wish, and this is going to end up brother against brother.
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Post by yor on Oct 5, 2008 2:46:25 GMT 1
totally.... A measure of this would have been fine. Mind you, I'm watching... But I'm a bit disappointed.
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Post by yannik on Oct 5, 2008 13:19:37 GMT 1
Sometimes you think what you're doing is good, but it just isn't.
Something about the cause justifying the means . . . There's that saying, right? Sam thinks he's doing the right thing and he is, he's exorcising demons, but he's doing it using the power given to him by the demon, so who knows what is the ultimate result of that. There are exorcisms given to people by God, so those exorcisms should be used to defend the world, not demonic powers.
Somehow I don't think Sam will BE evil, but his actions, though intended as good, will have "evil" results. Not necessarily for him, but for the larger picture.
But I hope we'll at least get an explanation for Mary's friends. I would be disappointed if they just forget about that.
It was only the third episode! And you want to have all the answers... What would we be watching for the rest of the season?
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 5, 2008 13:31:21 GMT 1
That's true. We've been waiting for so long to get answers, it's easy to get impatient.
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Post by yor on Oct 6, 2008 1:48:32 GMT 1
Somehow I don't think Sam will BE evil, but his actions, though intended as good, will have "evil" results. Not necessarily for him, but for the larger picture.I don't suppose it could be as simple as... Demon gave me blood so I would do this... So instead, I'm going to resist and choose to do this instead. What's wrong with that? Sometimes the simplest explanation is ok with me... I mean, would it be SO wrong... SO bad... IF Sam just used his powers to kill demons and nothing more happened?
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Post by mick on Oct 6, 2008 2:57:37 GMT 1
IF Sam just used his powers to kill demons and nothing more happened?
But then we wouldn't have a story...pretty much since season 2, Sam's powers have been the driving force (even though there hasn't been much about them until now). He's always questioned whether or not he's a monster. Dean has always tried to protect him (from the time he was a baby and he ran out of the house with him). There's always been that underlying theme of what the YED did to Sam and why, and as nice as Sam just using the powers to kill demons and that's it, I just don't see it happening. Plus, then all you have is a show about a guy with supernatural powers, and there's no conflict (and what would Dean's purpose be? If Sam has powers to fight evil, what would Dean's story be?). With the threat of him going evil, you have the conflict--Dean trying to stop him, Sam not wanting to stop (thinkning he's using them for good), now with what Castiel says and the apocolypse coming. I think Kripke has always been building to this part of his story. I hope he can keep the momentum going.
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Post by yor on Oct 6, 2008 3:25:02 GMT 1
I think it is possible to tell the story, that Dean and Sam, together, keep Sam on the safe and narrow, but no one else believes them... That way it can be a Winchester's against the world fight...
I, personally, would love the story that despite being tainted by 'evil' we can overcome it and do the right thing... Isn't that what the Christian religion (the one I was raised in and believe) is all about?
I used to love the "Sam going evil" story line... NOW... I'm utterly frustrated by it.
(Maybe because now this sets Dean up to be the ultimate hero... Kinda ticks me off. I would have rather they share in the heroics.)
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Post by mick on Oct 6, 2008 3:29:57 GMT 1
I, personally, would love the story that despite being tainted by 'evil' we can overcome it and do the right thing
I think (or hope, anyways) that this will be the outcome of the story. Isn't the point that Sam has to face this about himself and make his own choice? I hope so, anyways, because I for one don't want to see the whole "it was his destiny" storyline that he had no control over. Casteil left i kind of open-ended when he said the angels don't know what the YED's plans were or how Sam fits into them. To me, that means the future hasn't been decided yet, and Sam can still choose the right path to go down. I do think he's going to flirt with the evil, mainly because I feel that's what the show has been setting up for the last few years. Hopefully, though, in the end, as you say, he will overcome it, and he will be stronger for it.
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Post by yor on Oct 6, 2008 3:35:01 GMT 1
Yep... Now, if only all the answers could be revealed to ME NOW so I can stop fretting~ Come on, Kripke... Give a girl a break!
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 6, 2008 13:10:48 GMT 1
Patience, my friend *grin*
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Post by yor on Oct 6, 2008 22:43:25 GMT 1
is a word NOT in my vocabulary...
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Post by yor on Oct 8, 2008 12:42:19 GMT 1
I'm always interested in Bardicvoice's reviews over at Supernaturaltv...
I agreed with this... and it was one of the things that nags at me about the ep... more guilt for Dean?
Dean’s presence appeared to directly influence events in very fundamental ways. The biggest one is simply that Samuel and Mary had no reason to be in Haleyville until Mary reacted to Dean’s information about where the yellow-eyed demon would be, and it wasn’t until encountering Mary there that the demon noticed her and marked her as a target – or so he said. Again, it was apparently their presence where they had no intention of being that led to the demon possessing Samuel, and to killing Samuel, Deanna, and John in order to set the stage for making the deal with Mary. It would seem that it was actually Dean’s presence out of time that drove all the events that led to his family’s tragedy.
I don’t buy that an angel sending Dean traveling in time caused what happened to his family, and I don’t believe that the episode was actually intended to suggest that. I think that the real key was another of Castiel’s lines, right after his observation that destiny couldn’t be changed: All roads lead to the same destination
I can agree with the second take...
My second possible explanation is that Castiel gave Dean a true dream of the past, something essentially real and true to events, but with details altered to accommodate his point-of-view presence. In other words, it was real to him, and adjusted on the basis of the decisions he made, but it wasn’t real to history, at least not in terms of Dean actually having been present and interacting with his family before he was ever born.
thought these were interesting points...
We saw Dean face that same question before in his djinn-induced dream in What Is And What Should Never Be, when he decided at his father’s grave – and before he realized that the dream-world was false – to sacrifice his imperfect but sweet wish reality to restore the life he had known despite its loss and pain precisely in order to save all the people who would otherwise have died. This time, however, given the opportunity really to know and to save both of his parents, he couldn’t face giving them and his brother up in favor of numbers of strangers. In the aftermath of losing his whole family, including having seen his brother die as a consequence of the demon’s interference, and following his own deal, death, and resurrection, Dean has finally hit his limit on personal sacrifice. He’s a different man than he was before because of what he’s suffered in the year since encountering the djinn.
I do wonder when and under what circumstances Castiel will reveal himself to Sam. I suspect that there were two major reasons Sam was not included on this jaunt into the past, and that the first and simplest was that Castiel knew that Sam was already aware of the single most salient detail that Dean had to learn: that Sam had been tainted with demon blood. I would guess, however, that the second and more important reason was actually to keep Sam as safe as possible by keeping him remote from another direct connection with Azazel, which might have resulted in him being pushed further down the dark path than whatever he is currently doing with Ruby. Since there was no chance for whoever went back in time to actually affect events, it would have been foolish to risk a confrontation between Sam and Azazel that might have adversely affected Sam on his return to the present, and it’s a fair bet that Sam, had he been with Dean, would have found the temptation to use his powers to save his parents irresistible when everything else inevitably failed. I suspect that would have been catastrophic for Sam, and perhaps for everyone.
Even more heartbreaking was learning that Sam, despite his many similarities to John, took after Mary in the depth of his passion to be free of the hunting life, to be able to embrace safety, security, and normality. Knowing already that Mary’s fierce determination to give her children a better life was thwarted by reality, and then learning that the deal she made precisely to ensure that life was what destroyed it, was bitter grief for Dean. He couldn’t blame Mary for her choice, especially not remembering his own. He had thought that the Winchester cycle of sacrifice began with John, but the first deal had been Mary’s, and without it, none of them would even have existed.
Given that his anger is born of his fear for his brother’s safety, and that he has a lifetime of fear stored up as fuel, it’s going to be very hard for Dean to turn the anger off, but I predict that Sam, who understandably believes in his decisions and the good that he’s doing, will react defensively and badly unless and until he can see past Dean’s anger to understand the core of his fear and to realize that it’s not fear of him, but fear for him. I think we’re going to be in for rocky times and more family tragedy before they manage to share their secrets and truly come together again.
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