mick
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Post by mick on Oct 3, 2008 16:27:26 GMT 1
Maybe Castiel wanted Dean to be able to change the past, or at least for him to try.Someone on another board speculated that Castiel really just wanted Dean to learn, not to change the past. I think what Castiel wants is for Dean to change the future, so to speak. They don't know what's going on with Sam, but they want Dean to keep him in line, or they will. So he's giving Dean the chance to save his brother, or they will take care of it (which, was said in kind of a scary way; it gave me chills). And I love that Dean was named after a womanAT TWOP, someone said that maybe Dean was named after himself--that Mary remembered him and named her first born after him (I guess, kind of like "Back to the Future," at the end where the mom says, "Marty is a nice name). If that's the case, Dean's named after himself! (although, I think it's after his grandma) This was supposed to explain Dean's role in the mytharc... It doesn't. It's no different than it always has been... I really expected a clear and specific DIFFERENT role for Dean, but there's none revealed.This is my main problem with the whole thing. Dean gets pulled out of hell because of Sam. It's still the same thing--it's all about Sam (and, I'm not saying that bitterly or anything like that, I just didn't know how else to say it). I had thought that it would be more about Dean. Yes, I knew Sam would be a part of it, but I had thought Dean getting out of hell would give him something that was "his." His story is still about his brother--that's nothing new. Why did he have to go to hell for that? Why didn't Castiel come to him before the deal was over and say, "If you make sure Sam doesn't do whatever it is we don't want him to do, you won't go to the pit." Then again, I guess Dean going to hell set the ball rolling (or great, more guilt!), or maybe set things in motion sooner? Sam wouldn't have embraced his powers so readily if Dean had been save. To me, it's more Dean has to "save" Sam, or the angels will "kill" him--Castiel did say the angels would have no problem with dealing with Sam if Dean couldn't, and of course Dean is going to everything withing his power to save Sam. As for the YED and Lilith's plan, maybe they both want the same thing, but are working against each other? Maybe the YEd, for some reason, figured one of his "special" kids could be a vessel for Lucifer? And are we to assume that the YED is still around? Or has Lilith taken over his plans for him? And I'm with you guys--I think Dean was only gone for a little while, even though days passed for him. But he didn't know that when he told Castiel that Sam was looking for him. This may sound mean, but I would love to see one time where Sam leaves Dean sleeping and comes back to find him gone, then freaks out. Is this going to be a common thing? Maybe the next time Dean will pretend to be asleep (because, I'm guessing as you guys have said, Dean is going to start to lose some trust in his brother). The TBC, for me, at least, meant that this is the story for season 4, so it will be continued throughout the series, not in one or two more episodes. They've set up the mytharc for this season--what's going on with Sam? What may he become? Will Dean be able to help/stop him before the angels do?
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 3, 2008 16:40:49 GMT 1
They don't know what's going on with Sam, but they want Dean to keep him in line, or they will. So he's giving Dean the chance to save his brother, or they will take care of it (which, was said in kind of a scary way; it gave me chills).That's pretty much what I had been trying to say, only you said it so much better AT TWOP, someone said that maybe Dean was named after himself--that Mary remembered him and named her first born after him (I guess, kind of like "Back to the Future," at the end where the mom says, "Marty is a nice name). If that's the case, Dean's named after himself! (although, I think it's after his grandma)It's this whole time paradoxon again (which, if you think about it too much, it can drive you crazy LOL). At some point, all this happened for the first time, without Dean. And then Mary would have have to give her son a name and she had no hunter to name him after. So she chose her grandmother's name. Does that make any sense? And are we to assume that the YED is still around? No, I think he's really dead. But his plan might still be in motion, even without him.
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mick
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Post by mick on Oct 3, 2008 16:51:33 GMT 1
So, I've been reading some other boards and came across a couple of things I thought were interesting. Yes, Dean is back because of Sam, but also because the angels don't know YED's plan, and they think Dean can find it out. Someone suggested that's the reason they left Dean in hell for so long--maybe he heard something about the plan, that it's locked down deep inside in his memories, and they are hoping that the memories of it will come out, and he will be able to tell them what the YED had planned (and also how Sam is involoved). The YED and Lilith have different plans, but Ruby is part of the YED's plan--like she has taken over where he left off. Castiel telling Dean to "stop it"--maybe he sends him back so Dean will see the truth and stop blaming himself for everything bad that happened to his family? What do you guys think? (these bits were being discussed at TWOP, which is where Ir ead them) I also read over there that the scene where Granpademomn sniffs Dean was improvised...in the TV Guide interview, Mitch mentions something about doing a tense scene with Jensen where he did something that they hadn't rehearsed. It seems like they do that quite abit on this show (I also read where Nicki A said in "Shadows," where she saunters over to both boys and sits on them, that wasn't rehearsed either. She just does it). Or is it just the fact that all these people want to get up close and personal with the boys? ETA--I just had a thought--maybe when Castiel tells Dean he has to "stop it," he means he has to stop John from buying that van? ;D
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 3, 2008 17:02:34 GMT 1
LOL Oh yes, that had to have been it! Just imagine, Sam and Dean driving through the country, in the VAN That's an interesting theory about Dean having heard about YED's plans in hell. I would LOVE that! And Ruby actually working for/with the YED ... hmm, also interesting. Trying to gain Sam's trust, while at the same time turning him to the darkside. She has been trying to get him to use his powers from the beginning.
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yannik
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Post by yannik on Oct 3, 2008 17:38:43 GMT 1
First of all I don't believe in Destiny. Second of all, I don't like time travel paradoxes. Unless in science-fiction, but that's a totally different subject. But combining destiny with time travel worked here. I mean the bit, that "you couldn't change anything; you can't change destiny". Only it wasn't really destiny, it was simply a past. I dunno, mixed up, or whatever.
I think Castiel meant that Dean has to stop whatever is going to happen in the future; he has to stop YED's Big Secret Plan. And I totally agree that Dean has a chance to SAVE Sam, or else the angels will KILL him. That's a whole different thing than what John made him promise.
I don't like it either, that it seems - at this point - that all that happened, the hell, being pulled out - happened because of Sam. But then, this arc is only just starting. And maybe it wasn't so much about Sam for Sam, but about what Sam represents in YED's plans. I like the theory that Dean "heard" something while in Hell.
And. Someone please tell me where were these references to "Back to the Future"? Oh, and the scene at the bar at the beginning? It was hilarious. "You know that Sony and Cher broke up?" heee.
The lack of Sam in this episode was very poignant I think. Last week I was disappointed that there wasn't much of brotherly interaction, this week, at the end, when Castiel tells Dean where Sam is and to go there, and all, it was almost physical ache at this distance between the boys. Next episode cannot come too soon.
One more thing - Jensen totally rocked that scene with Mary where she tells Dean about her dream for her children, and he tries to warn her about the future. Gads, this man can act.
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 3, 2008 17:44:51 GMT 1
Yes, that was an awesome scene!
Someone please tell me where were these references to "Back to the Future"?
Yes, there was one. In the beginning, when Dean follows John and suddenly Castiel is standing before him, during their conversation Dean mentions the DeLorean (I have no idea how to write that ... the time traveling car from the movie).
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mick
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Post by mick on Oct 3, 2008 18:16:46 GMT 1
Also, when he's in the diner and first sees his father, it's similar to Marty McFly seeing his father for the first time in the movie. Then there's the dinner scene, which, while no BTTF references were made, there was a scene like that in the movie (only it was funny, not serious). Yeah, I'm not down with the destiny thing, because I think people have free will to make choices. You can be going down a certain road, but that path can change based on what you do. I do think certain things happen for a reason, but I don't consider that destiny as much as something you, as a person, need to go through for whatever reason. Castiel left it open, to me at least, as far as Sam goes. I've felt the show sometimes has umaybe implied that it's Sam's destiny to go evil, but Castiel talking to Dean made it sound like Dean can affect that--things can turn out well, or they can turn out horrible. Time travel stuff can make my head hurt, too! I think it's an interesting concept (and what's kind of funny, earlier in the week my son was talking about how he was going to make a time machine and go back and do whatever he was going to do, and I made the comment to him that he couldn't change the past because it could affect the future--yes, he's 8 going on 28! ;D), and I think the show handled it well. Yes, Jensen rocked last night! Why that boy isn't recognised by the Emmy people, I'll never understand (well, I do, it's a genre show, and they overlook BSG as well)! The scene with Mary was heart-breaking, and I loved him with Mitch P!
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yannik
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Post by yannik on Oct 3, 2008 18:34:21 GMT 1
Some of you wondered how Mary explained it to John about what happened. I wonder how they both explained it to the police? And why they stayed in Lawrence after all this... ;D
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 3, 2008 19:17:19 GMT 1
Good point. Maybe they claimed someone broke in? It's half true.
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mick
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Post by mick on Oct 3, 2008 19:28:45 GMT 1
Yeah, I'm wondering how she explained it all, too. GOod point about them staying in Lawrence.
Something else--did Mary just forget about the demon and the deal? I mean, she was a hunter. You'd think kissing her "father" coupled with Dean's warning would have had her a little more prepared for the 10 year mark.
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 3, 2008 19:36:33 GMT 1
Also a good point. Maybe that's what made her get up that night? Instead of ignoring the noise, she felt the urge to check on Sam?
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 3, 2008 19:40:35 GMT 1
Or maybe she had made some precautions, but they weren't enough?
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yor
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Post by yor on Oct 4, 2008 19:05:21 GMT 1
They don't know what's going on with Sam, but they want Dean to keep him in line, or they will.
That's a bit unfair. NO ONE knows what will happen or what the plan was... Unlike the other demon children, Sam has thus far resisted the urge to go evil... He's stayed true. I still believe now, even using the powers, he's stayed true. Sam being tainted is NOT a new concept to Dean. He knew something was up with Sam.
Another question pops into my mind... Why then, after this episode, did everyone who knew Mary have to die? Did everyone who knew the farmers kid also have to die? The woman on the couch?
All I can think is, they didn't really give us anything new other than Mary was from hunters and made a deal. To me, that's the let down. That's not really enough. I always suspected Mary made some kind of deal. (Heck, I did a fic on it to a degree.)
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Post by Silwyna on Oct 4, 2008 19:14:52 GMT 1
I wondered about her friends dying as well. Yeah, they didn't explain that. Maybe they will later? Maybe all the kid's friends died as well? Although, on the other hand, this didn't happen to Max's family ... his father and uncle were still alive (until Max killed them), the neighbour who knew them was still alive. Maybe Mary did something to prevent the YED to come back 10 years later? And that somehow let to all her friends to die later?
I have no idea ;D
I do hope we'll get answers for that later.
As for Sam not being evil ... he's not evil yet. But he's definitely darker than before. He's already getting used to killing the demon's hosts and not worry about it. He was willing to sacrifice Nancy the virgin without hesitating. I think he's walking a fine line and if he makes too many wrong decisions, he could end up ... not really evil, but not good either. Does that make sense? Sometimes you think what you're doing is good, but it just isn't.
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Post by mick on Oct 4, 2008 19:34:57 GMT 1
Or, they won't ever explain why Mary's friends died ( a la Dean's bleeding eyes). Yes, I do think that Sammy is walking a fine line. I just read an awesome bit about both brothers (well, it's more Dean than Sam) about how distant Sam is. You'd think, after getting his brother back from hell, he'd want to be with him, not leave him in the middle of the night like he's been doing, not to mention lying outright to him about his powers. I think that shows just how far Sam has fallen since Dean's death, like when he lost Dean, he also lost himself. To him, he's using his powers for good, but the angels are concerned, so I do think there's a chance that the evil could take over. Sometimes you think what you're doing is good, but it just isn't.I think this sums it up perfectly, and I could see the boys getting into it using this thought--Dean telling Sam it's not good, Sam telling Dean he's helping people. Sam may have always been a psychic, but the YED did give him his blood, which means, to me at least, the potential for those powers to be used the wrong way. I think Ruby is definitely helping with this--she's not helong Sam out of the goodness of her own heart, I don't think. She's a demon, she's got to want something out of it. That's my two cetns worth, anyway.
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