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Post by yor on May 17, 2009 4:59:22 GMT 1
You may find this ironic... I fully would expect Dean to remain angry with Sam for siding with Ruby over him... BUT more for that reason. Sam chose Ruby over Dean. That's reason for Dean to be hurt. Dean, not me. *wink*
Maybe it's best to ignore me... I'm just grumpy and very ornery tonight.
(I'm very down to be honest. I'm having serious, Missing Hans blues this weekend and I know I'm picking fights but I can't stop myself.)
And damnit, my toe hurts.
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Post by Silwyna on May 17, 2009 14:02:57 GMT 1
Yor, feel free to vent whenever you feel like it! *hugs*
You're not alone on defending Sam though. Apparently, I never seem to find the right words to say it, but I don't hate Sam, never have, never will. I pretty much agree with everything you said about him.
I don't get all the Sam hate (or the Dean hate for that matter, cause I've seen more than enough of that too), it's annoying and I wish it would just stop. This show is about BOTH brothers. Can't we love them both the same? Why is it most people feel they have to chose a side?
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Post by yor on May 17, 2009 18:58:10 GMT 1
Ya know... as I was lying in bed sick this morning... because on top of everything else, I came down with some food poisoning... (No Lena visit for me today.)
If anything should be said, it was about this season pointing out that the powers of evil (angels and demons, no pun intended) have showed us that the boys NEED TO BE TOGETHER! They compliment each other's strengths and weaknesses! Both the angels and demons were keeping them apart for a reason.
and Silke... I'd love to read the Dean bashing. I don't see it anywhere else (other boards) but in my mind. And I'm not trying to bash him. I'm simply not putting him on the glory pedestal others have lifted him to.
And KUDOS to that realization. No doubting it ever. Course, the bad guys totally know it.
Honestly, if I were Dean, I would have gone INSANE in that room and the angels should have known that. If I were designing a waiting room for him, it would have looked like a bar!
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Post by Silwyna on May 17, 2009 19:13:44 GMT 1
That's why I love that they were standing side by side at the end ... FINALLY together! They still have a lot of issues to work through with each other, but I think that's how we will see them in Season 5 - together, not apart I have stopped reading other boards a long time ago, just got too crazy for me. I mostly stumble upon it in fanfics, where Dean is written as this mean, cruel bastard who treats poor innocent Sam wrong (or Sam being overly evil and treats poor innocent Dean wrong); it's all so out of character it makes me want to scream sometimes. They have both made mistakes, they both showed their weaknesses, but there's always a right in their mistakes somewhere and next to their weaknesses is this huge strength they give each other. It's very well balanced between both, in my opinion. Honestly, if I were Dean, I would have gone INSANE in that room and the angels should have known that. If I were designing a waiting room for him, it would have looked like a bar!LOL Yes, that would have been much more fitting. Gute Besserung!
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yor
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Post by yor on May 17, 2009 21:35:45 GMT 1
ok, I can't help but keep wondering if Lucifer isn't going to take over Sam's body. If the blood isn't a marker for him to use. Hence the reason it falls to Dean... and the reason it returns to Save or kill Sam.
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Post by mick on May 17, 2009 22:12:38 GMT 1
Okay, I had told myself that I wasn't going to say anything else, because I feel like maybe I started something that I didn't mean to, but I'm going to go ahead and say this, and then I'll shut up.
Contrary to the way it may sound, I don't hate Sam. One of my biggest problems with the character is that I feel the writers haven't spent alot of time on him this season, on his motivations, on how he got to the point he got to in this episode. I have always felt that pride was his major flaw. That is not to say that I don't see Dean's flaw. I think making that deal was a HUGE mistake, and probably one of the dumbest things he's ever done. He couldn't live his his failure, so he made a deal with a demon. He knew how it made him feel when John did it, but he was all willing to let Sam feel the same way. He wasn't thinking, and he more than paid for it. He owned that mistake. Sam wasn't thinking when he started in with Ruby...I want to see him own that one. I have also seen plenty of Dean hatred posts, along with the Sam ones. I do have to say though, no matter how either boy got into their situations, I can and do fault them for their actions. I fault Dean for that deal, and I fault Sam for his choice to trust a demon.
I have always felt that Sam was the one like John, going all the way back to season one. I always felt the reason the two butted heads was because they were too much alike, so the fact that the show played that up is not a shock to me, because it falls right into what I've always felt.
I don't necessarily believe that all the writers love Dean over Sam. I do think (and I'm basing this on what I've seen in certain episodes with certain writers), that certain writers favor one boy over the other, but that may simply because they can relate to one over the other. I do, however, think that the writers like to see JA angst all over the place, which is part of the problem. But, seeing as I'll never work on the show or get to know these people, it's all my speculation.
I hate that it seems like, as a viewer, you're on one side or the other. With any show, it's natural to relate to a certain character. I hate being labeled a "Dean-girl," though. I hate the stigma that all my feelings are because of that, or that I will feel a certain way about Sam because of it. Do I like Dean? Well, that's an obvious "yes." Is it because I can understand him better? Well, I can understand certain things, but the biggest reason of all? I love JA. I love watching him act, and, as shallow as this is, I think he's mighty fine. I like Dean because of JA, not the other way around. There is something about him on screen that grabs my attention and makes me want to watch. Don't get me, wrong, I think JP is just as good, but he just doesn't grab my attention the way JA does. Both of them together are gold, though, and those are the scenes I love the best.
I always try to be careful of what I say about the characters, because I don't want to start anything or make anyone upset. I will admit I had some pretty strong feelings about Sam that I didn't post here because of that. Part of that, I think, too, was because of other stuff going on that I've been dealing with, part of it because I just didn't have the energy to get into a discussion about it. At the end of the day, these are fictitional characters on a fictitional show. I have no control over how they are written, and it's not my story that's being told. It's Kripke. I think he's had a plan for certain things that have happened, and others I honestly think he's come up with as he's gone along. I haven't always cared for the writing or either brothers' characterization, but it doesn't really matter because at the end of the day, it's still one of my favorite shows.
If Dean had been the one obsessed with killing Lillith, it would have been ok with everyone, because Dean can do no wrong. I seriously believe if roles were reversed, people would be ok with Dean doing what Sam did, just because he's Dean.
Um, that's a generalization that I'm not a part of. Dean can do wrong, and has. It's also difficult to say how Dean would have been, because like everyone else in the world, they have different personalities, and that alone would affect how they would react.
if Lucifer isn't going to take over Sam's body. If the blood isn't a marker for him to use. Hence the reason it falls to Dean... and the reason it returns to Save or kill Sam.
I said this same thing in the "When the Levee Breaks" thread. I hope it doesn't come to this, because I have never been a fan of the "save him or kill him" thing. I have also never been a fan of the powers, for the exact reason as shown in this episode.
I'll shut-up now.
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Post by yor on May 18, 2009 0:26:19 GMT 1
I wish people had beaten up on Dean's decision as much... *wink* We did a nice job here! Ok, I had to chuckle that you've been holding back about Sam here. (I'm actually giggling.) Your strong feelings were held back? I would like to see what you held back. You should never feel like holding back. We can take it. Really. I can fight with the best of 'em. AND you usually make good points. I would totally agree with you that our passions come from who we are and how we relate to the characters... I have ALWAYS been drawn to Sam's character as the youngest and how he was treated as it is exactly how I am and was treated in my family. I don't look at JA and get the same response as everyone else. He's as fine an actor as 20 others I could name and I don't any more response from him than I do JP. I think they give him more. I feel the scenes they've given JP he's knocked out of the park just as much. I hate like hell getting 'caught up' in the fan drama of a show. I find myself doing so only when I am stressed and vulnerable myself. The past several months have been so for me. Please know, in the end, I ALWAYS know it is a show. It is entertainment and I will still ALWAYS be back. AND best of all, and I can present references to prove it, I would NEVER trade a friendship over it. EVER! I don't comment on other forums for that point. I rarely ever read there either. I don't know why I have been recently other than the lonely and vulnerable thing going on right now... (not that excuses are allowed.) You've said it to me Mick, now I'll say it back. NEVER SHUT UP! EVER
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xwacky
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Post by xwacky on May 18, 2009 5:43:19 GMT 1
Oh yor hon, I'm sorry you are hurt. I hope you are feeling better. *hugs* While it's no secret I'm now firmly a Dean-girl, it is not my intent to bash Sam, never was, and never will. If I inadvertently sounded so, I apologize. I maybe at times said I was miffed at the poor boy, it's only because I adore him too. In my opinion, Sam is a very well developed character, just like Dean. But the two of them are very different in nature, in fact opposite in many aspects, yet alike in others. That's why they compliment each other and work well when together. I am of the opinion Ruby wasn't lying when she told Sam the importance of "choice". For one thing, by then, she had already accomplished her mission, and was positively gloating. For another, the message is very much in line with Kripke's theme from the beginning: despite the demon blood YED put inside him, Sam won't turn evil as long as he chose not to! It's ironic that words from Ruby gave me hope Sam will be by Dean's side (next season) even though he has changed by drinking all those Demon blood (to what extent I don't know, but I think it's not relevant). Why? Because inky black may fill Sam's eyes, but the decision is still his (free will baby!) If he chose not to, Sam is still Sammy! I don't think Dean has acquired superpower all of a sudden. If I understand Kripke correctly, he never will. Dean being Lucifer's nemesis is more symbolic than literal. Maybe fate dictates Dean pulls the trigger in the end, but he won't even get the chance to do so without Sam's help. Hmm, how would the brothers kill the Devil? Why do I have a feeling we haven't heard the last of the Colt? I admit I'm a little bothered by the notion that Dean made a deal with the Demon simply because he can't live without Sam. It's not the first time I "heard" it, and I completely disagree. I don't think the thoughts "...I...live..." had entered Dean's frame of mind when he was staring at his brother's cold body. It was more like "I failed...Sam live..." instead. The deal was a bad one, but it was altruistic, selfless. In fact, the lowest Sam moment for me ever was his "You are selfish, you know that?" comment immediately after he learned what his brother had done. Don't get me wrong, I completely see where it comes from, and I sympathize. But still, at the moment Sam learned about Dean's sacrifice, his immediate thought was himself, of what it meant for him. Yor, you are right in saying Dean hasn't changed after all this time, Sam is still his world. Not healthy at all! But I also see a slight difference here. In the beginning, it's wanting Sam close to him because Dean was abandoned, and alone. But I think it has morphed into wanting to make sure Sam is okay, and safe. By now, I don't think Dean has long term plans for himself, but he does for Sam. If Kripke isn't afraid of anger his fans, I wouldn't be surprised if Dean doesn't survive the end. Dean-girls, please don't throw tomatoes at me! I'm twisted sometimes. I enjoy Shakespeare's tragedy just as much as I enjoy his comedy. The more prominent character development I see in Dean is that he's much less cavalier now. Before, when we first met him, Dean was larger than life. But now after everything that has happened, he learned he's mortal, and he has weakness, makes mistakes. What I love about Dean (and the reason he's heroic) is that he's not cowed by that knowledge. He's a little wiser, but still just as brave. Sam's character has progressed so much as well. I think the most valuable lesson he learned is that sometimes good intentions are not good enough. Also I think he learned how important "choices" are. Because of this, I believe Sam will emerge a much stronger person (in next season). It is quite obvious the writers are edging Dean towards light, and Sam towards shadow. Lightness or darkness by itself is boring. But put them together, we have interesting and striking chiaroscuro. The reason season 4 is exceptionally interesting to me is because the brothers are surrounded by the opposing forces! p.s. yor, I don't know if you had a chance to watch the last 5 minutes of the show. I finally successfully downloaded the episode. It took me a while, and I had to download software to unrar the thing because it was in parts. Long story short, if you still need it, I uploaded the avi file for you to download.
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Post by yor on May 18, 2009 12:44:27 GMT 1
X, I wasn't lashing out at anyone in particular... just lashing out. It really was grief unfolding. I'm convinced. A weird way to show it if you ask me. A friend called last night and I cried the whole way through the conversation and yet I'd been talking about Hans for a week without tears.
Emotions are weird things... Everything I posted is utterly tainted... and needs to be taken as such. I was possessed.
However I would counter two points... (in a saner mind.)
I admit I'm a little bothered by the notion that Dean made a deal with the Demon simply because he can't live without Sam. It's not the first time I "heard" it, and I completely disagree. I don't think the thoughts "...I...live..." had entered Dean's frame of mind when he was staring at his brother's cold body. It was more like "I failed...Sam live..." instead. The deal was a bad one, but it was altruistic, selfless. In fact, the lowest Sam moment for me ever was his "You are selfish, you know that?" comment immediately after he learned what his brother had done. Don't get me wrong, I completely see where it comes from, and I sympathize. But still, at the moment Sam learned about Dean's sacrifice, his immediate thought was himself, of what it meant for him.
I don't think Dean made his decision because he couldn't live alone so much as he failed and couldn't live with that. If his one purpose in life, according to John had been to 'take care of Sammy', he no longer had a purpose. Sadly, he hadn't been given much more to work with from John.
I can in no way see it as selfless. It was made of depression and grief. Had Bobby hung around, it might never have been made. He was alone and vulnerable. Sadly, Angels can't give someone self esteem either, yet it seems the show is trying to imply that sometimes. Dean has to find it within himself.
Wait for it... I'm going to say something nice...
Dean's journey has been fascinating...
Yep, I said it!!!
He's completely evolved and yet not entirely there. I thought honestly, his greatest , healthiest moment was letting Sam walk out the door. He showed he could do it. It would have been best for him to actually let Sam go. (But it would have made us all sad.) I disagreed with Bobby about family, sometimes a family is so dysfunctional, 'children' should be removed in order to give them a chance to be healthy.
Sam is frequently described as the selfish one, but I think it comes across as being compared to Dean on the show. If he were taken out of context, he would actually have a healthy self-worth. The problem is he is always compared to Dean on the show, who always places family above self. For the show's purpose Dean's attitude is needed.
I would also contend that Sam's story didn't actually get the development time that Dean's did this season. I don't think we got into his mind like we got into Dean's. If we had, I don't think the fan-base would be as polarized. We got only one episode with his backstory and then see him sneaking out and then blood. With Dean we got tantalizing and heartbreaking reveals laced through the many episodes. We saw him struggle to rebuild and regain... his journey was always present in a way that Sam's was not.
If they could have done a better job lacing Sam's journey... people might have understood his decisions better.
In the end, I wonder how the season would have played out if the old Ruby had played the character...
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Post by Silwyna on May 18, 2009 13:04:05 GMT 1
Mick, I'm with Yor: NEVER SHUT UP! I LOVE discussing with you, with everyone here, really. It's so much fun. It would be utterly boring if we all agreed about everything
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Post by mick on May 18, 2009 13:20:43 GMT 1
Okay, so I'm not going to shut-up! In the beginning, it's wanting Sam close to him because Dean was abandoned, and alone. But I think it has morphed into wanting to make sure Sam is okay, and safe. Yes, I agree with this. I think he has come to the realization that he can't control Sam's choices--Sam's a big boy and has to make his own mistakes. All Dean can do is be there to help him if he needs it (which I'm sure he will next season). I disagreed with Bobby about familyI didn't much care for Bobby's argument. I get why he did it--there's no quicker way to get through to Dean than to bring family--his dad--into it. But, the week before he was all, "The apocalypse is at hand, so we don't have time for your family drama," then in this one Dean is concerend with the apocalypse and Bobby is all, "He's your brother." With Dean we got tantalizing and heartbreaking reveals laced through the many episodesI'm telling you, I'm convinced it's because the writers love to see JA angst! Did you guys see that clip from one of the cons (I think it was sometime last year), where they were asked about getting a script with Sera's name on it? They said when they would get one, they knew it meant that there would be a scene with Sam in bed with someone and a scene where Dean has to cry. In the end, I wonder how the season would have played out if the old Ruby had played the character... I think the same, because I think the character was meant to do what she did all along, no matter who portrayed her. I wasn't crazy about Katie Cassidy, but I do think she's better than GC (I've seen a couple of episodes of that "Harper's Island," and I think she's better there than on SPN, so Ruby may have been more interesting with her already having the experience under her belt). I guess it's a moot point, thought, because RUBY IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!! It is quite obvious the writers are edging Dean towards light, and Sam towards shadow. Lightness or darkness by itself is boring. But put them together, we have interesting and striking chiaroscuro.I absolutely LOVE this!!!! It is so true. The light and the dark working together will win the day!
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Post by Silwyna on May 18, 2009 13:41:35 GMT 1
Mick, I love your enthusiasm about Ruby's death *grin* Of course, I totally agree with you there. We'll never have to see her again (well, not in new episodes, anyway).
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xwacky
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Post by xwacky on May 18, 2009 20:52:37 GMT 1
YOR, I wasn't concerned with your lashing out. I was more concerned with the fact I had hurt your feelings. That's the last thing I want. I am so sorry about Hans. I'm sure you don't need to be reminded over again. I just want to tell you my heart goes out to you, and it's okay to cry. But back to the characters, I see them a little differently from you. I'm not saying I'm correct, just the way I feel. I still don't think Dean thinks in terms of "how am I going to live..." That's not his deal. He's not thinky like that. He'll think he's not good enough, but I just don't see he has the capacity to think how that would affect him, more like how that would affect others. He's not self-aware like Sam. I also think Dean giving Sam the ultimatum is the single worst mistake he made. It was wrong for John to make it, and it was wrong for Dean too. You just don't tell your loved one to never come back no matter how bad it gets. Both John and Dean backed Sam into a corner and pushed him away, at a time they should reach out to him. What makes Dean a better person than John is he didn't take too long to recognize his mistake, and apologize for it. Of course he had a little nudge from Bobby, but I imagine Bobby had given John a piece of his mind too, only to no avail. If I remember correctly, John never apologized to Sam. It's that pride thing. Anyway, just my little thought. And I don't expect everyone think the same as I do. I'm excited about next season. I was so worried the brothers would be on opposite sides against each other. But I don't think so anymore. The pressure would still be there, more than ever, to push the brothers apart. But I think they'll stick together through thick and thin. I'm in agreement with you here Mick. Dean's angst is just so heart breaking to me; and JA always plays it to perfection. Never too much, never too little. The controlled breakdown gets me every time! LOL their remark about Sera's script. Did they really say that?! I'm late to the fandom, I had no idea about these things.
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Post by Silwyna on May 18, 2009 21:12:18 GMT 1
I also think Dean giving Sam the ultimatum is the single worst mistake he made. It was wrong for John to make it, and it was wrong for Dean too. You just don't tell your loved one to never come back no matter how bad it gets. Both John and Dean backed Sam into a corner and pushed him away, at a time they should reach out to him. I totally agree with this! What makes Dean a better person than John is he didn't take too long to recognize his mistake, and apologize for it. Of course he had a little nudge from Bobby, but I imagine Bobby had given John a piece of his mind too, only to no avail. If I remember correctly, John never apologized to Sam. It's that pride thing.I wonder if that was what led to Bobby using his shotgun on John I'm in agreement with you here Mick. Dean's angst is just so heart breaking to me; and JA always plays it to perfection. Never too much, never too little. The controlled breakdown gets me every time!Oh yes, he's excellent in this!
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Post by yor on May 18, 2009 23:06:57 GMT 1
Thanks X, no worries... And tears flow frequently... Even though, 'he was just a dog.' (No worries, no one has said this to my face. A student said it a few days before he died.)
I think one of the reasons I loved Dean making the statement though, is the little reminder that he TOO, is still John's son... We've spent time this season commenting on how alike Sam is, but when it comes down to it, the Winchesters are ALL cut from the same cloth! John shows himself in Dean too. And yes, it did again give him the chance to see he can change, unlike his father.
And very true, Dean is not self-aware like Sam. I very much prefer to discuss Sam in that context than that of being selfish. To me, there is a big difference. For example, I consider myself to be a VERY self-aware person, and I can also be selfish (hello, this weekend) but I know when I am being both.
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