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Post by mick on May 14, 2009 12:25:16 GMT 1
Tonight's the night...and then, what I'm sure to follow, is a long hiatus! Anyways, I am totally unspoiled (and it's really hard with the finale so close!), but I had some thoughts while waiting in the car line for the kids yesterday. I know we talked about Sam being a possible vessel for Lucifer, but what if it's not Sam, it's Dean? And then Sam is the only one who can save him because of his abilities? Kripke has, in my opinion, blurred the line between good and evil this season, so what if the final battle isn't good vs evil but evil vs maybe evil? (not that this is what I necessarily want to see, it's just a thought) And a totally off the wall idea--if Sam somehow ingests angel blood, will it counteract the demon blood, thus have him losing his powers and becoming "normal" again?
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Post by Silwyna on May 14, 2009 15:30:57 GMT 1
Interesting thoughts! I like the Dean/Lucifer theory. Not sure about the angel's blood, because I think angel possession works somehow different than demon possession (or at least that's what I want to think ). One more episode and then 4 months of waiting! What are we going to do? Mick, all week I kept thinking about whether or not to post the episode title LOL Thank you for doing it!!! (since you're the most careful about spoilers among us, I think, I'm glad you did )
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Post by mick on May 14, 2009 18:40:07 GMT 1
since you're the most careful about spoilers among us
Only at the end, though. I'll read anything I can about the beginning, but I don't want to know the end!
Not sure about the angel's blood, because I think angel possession works somehow different than demon possession (or at least that's what I want to think
Oh, I definitely am with you on this--I want to think that angel possession is different, too. Then again, I don't quite get how demons have blood, anyways. Does something within the demon, when it possesses a human, cause the blood to change? If so, what does that mean for people who have been possessed but lived to tell about it? Are there demon traces still there, or is it gone when the demon is exorcised? Sam did drink from another demon other than Ruby, so I wouldn't think it's just something about her blood. Ugh, my head hurts!
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Post by Silwyna on May 14, 2009 20:13:52 GMT 1
Yes, I think the possession does change the blood, but I guess it'll be gone once the demon is gone. And if anything is left, I guess it will be gone before the "host" notices anything about it.
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Post by mick on May 15, 2009 3:34:48 GMT 1
First, I have to say.... RUBY IS DEAD!!!!!! And how awesome was it that Sam held held her while Dean stab her, then twisted, and twisted!!!! RUBY IS DEAD!!!!!!! I think I'm going to have to watch that one scene again! Okay, so, it might take some time for me to process this fully, but overall I felt like I was watching what we talked about in last week's episode thread. The angels want the apocalyse to happen, Lilith was the final seal, Sam killing her broke the seal. I was glad to see that Lucifer didn't possess Sam (yet--we still have season 5 ), and Dean didn't become angelic or anything; although, I do have to admit, when Cas cut his arm, for a second I thought he was going to offer the blood to Dean!!! When I saw the pic of the angel killing Lucifer on the "holodeck," all I could think was it was a pic of Sam and Dean. LOVED that Cas decided to help Dean!!! Now he'll be on the run from heaven as well (which I guess explains the fact that Misha is going to be a regular cast member next year, blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/thegeekfiles/2009/05/misha-collins-to-become-a-regu.html ). I liked the scenes with Chuck, too. I hope we see him again. Bobby didn't die!!! Although, the whole scene with him and Dean felt off to me. I get what he was trying to do, but I'm kind of tired of everyone telling Dean he "whines." Oh, Sammy...you grew up in this life, your dad and brother always said that demons lie, and yet you still trusted her! How about that smirk she gave when Sam got the fake message? You chose her over your family. I have to say, though, as much as I loathed Ruby, I was glad to hear someone tell Sam that it was his choices that got him to that point--he wasn't coerced into anything, it was all him. Hopefully the powers are gone, he won't be a vessel for evil or anything, and he can start working his way back up that slope. I hope the brothers stay together now and start working through their issues--while chasing Lucifer and being chased by the angels. I guess we finally know how the YED ties into everything, only, why did it have to be Sam? Or was it because he was the only special kid left standing? Overall, nothing surprising or jaw-dropping (a la the semi smashing the Impala). The most shocking thing to me? That Dean knows enough about teen Disney pop-culture to make a "Suite Life of Zach and Cody" reference.
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Post by yor on May 15, 2009 4:12:25 GMT 1
bleepity bleep bleep bleep...
My tape ran out JUST as the blood started flowing from Lillith!!!!
now I have to wait until it hit the web to see the final scene.
I disagree however. As you would expect. Sam was manipulated into his choices. We knew the angels couldn't be entirely trusted and they were advising Dean. So he was right not to place entire faith there either. For example. IF he had gotten the right message... He wouldn't have had Ruby kill the final girl tonight... etc. I will never completely fault Sam when faced with the overwhelming guilt he felt over Dean's sacrifice and his very human desire for revenge. Let the perfect human rise.
In the end, Sam admitted he was bad and was willing to end it all when it was over. He said Dean should be as far away as possible. I respected him for that. That's my man. He owned his choices!
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Post by mick on May 15, 2009 12:36:28 GMT 1
He owned his choices!
Yes, which, to me, kind of contradicts that he was manipulated. Did Ruby come at him when he was at a weak moment? Heck, yeah, that's what demons do. But he grew up in this world, he knew the dangers, he's heard his whole life how demons can't be trusted, knew what the YED did to him without him having a choice in that, begged Dean to kill him if he ever became a monster, and yet he still fell for it. This is part of the reason it made me mad all season when he accused Dean of being weak. Dean broke after 30 years of unimaginable torture--of course he would come back different, but he still fought when it came right donw to it. While I will agree that Sam was in the most desolate place he had ever been with Dean's death and wanted nothing more than to save his brother--understandably so--he still followed a demon. He wasn't strong enough to tell her to shove it, that it was demons that got them in this whole mess anyways (now, I know that he didn't know about his mother's deal, but he did know about his father's and about Dean's, not to mention he himself being possessed, etc). Ruby told him all season 3 she could save Dean, and then she didn't, and yet he still trusted her. He wasn't innocent in it, I don't think. He still let Ruby kill an innocent person so he could drink her blood, which was his choice, no one else's. No one forced him to do that. It was his desire for revenge, his pride that he was strong enough, that he could handle it, that got him to this point. As Ruby said--his choices.
In my opinion, they both made crappy choices that led to Lucifer rising.
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Post by Silwyna on May 15, 2009 16:46:51 GMT 1
LOVED it!!! Yes, there weren't that many surprises. We already suspected that Sam killing Lillith would break the final seal and Lucifer's Rising didn't really come as a surprise either, considering the episode's title. But darn, that was one awesome episode! Loved Bobby and his speech!!!!! Yay for Dean reaching out to Sam again!!! I honestly didn't think we'd see that this season. I'm so, so glad Bobby will still be around for Season 5! I'm also glad that we won't have to worry about Ruby anymore, hehe. Sam broke my heart (again!) when he realized he'd been manipulated all the time (and he hasn't even realized yet that the angels were in it as well!). I think what led to all this was part manipulation and part his choice, a good mix of both. If he hadn't been so hell bend on killing Lillith, I don't think Ruby would have been able to manipulate him. I can't really blame him for that though; if I were in his place, I would want to kill her too, no matter what. I don't think anymore it was only revenge that drove him; I've read in severel fics that Sam was afraid that should Dean die, he would go back to hell, because even though Castiel pulled him from hell, he didn't break the contract and as long as Lillith was alive, the contract would still be there. I think there might be something to that theory. So it might not have only been about getting revenge, but also from preventing Dean from going back to hell. The next four months are going to be looooong, but at least the ep ended with Sam and Dean side by side Yor, sorry about the last five minutes! I would have SCREAMED at the TV had that happened to me! I hope you didn't have to wait too long until it showed up online.
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Post by mick on May 15, 2009 20:15:12 GMT 1
nothing to see here
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Post by Silwyna on May 15, 2009 20:53:50 GMT 1
My biggest fear is that the writers will whitewash Sam's actions by using his grief and his desperation as an excuse for his actions. They may be a reason for his actions, but they are not an excuse. The grief and desperation might not be an excuse, I agree with you there, but they are a reason and that - to me - is enough. Losing the one person you have in your life, the person that means the world to you ... it can make you forget all the things you were taught in life. Yes, Sam grew up not trusting demons, but this was his brother's life at stake ... when Ruby came to him, he still thought he could save Dean. He wasn't thinking clearly, and I can't blame him for that. I wouldn't. If someone would come to me and give me the chance to save that one person, I would take it. Because when you grief, you lose that ability to think clearly (I realize that's different with different people, but I think it's true for Sam). It's not an excuse, but it's a reason, and for that reason, I can't blame Sam. Dean made his choice to make the deal, and he payed the consequences for it. I think Sam should have to pay the consequences for his choices, too.Just living with the knowledge that he let Lucifer free will be lots of punishment for Sam, I think. He's not just going to walk away from that chapel and keep on living happily ever after. He screwed up so badly, it doesn't get much worse, and now innocent people will die (and have died, like the nurse he used to drink her blood and get stronger ... did he kill her, btw? Or "just" drank her blood?) See, this is the problem that I've had with the way the writers have handled Sam's storyline. What you said may very well be the case, but I've never seen it. I also didn't see how he made the choice to start drinking the blood, to do the things he's done, which means, we, as viewers, are left to try to come up with explanations like this one ourselves. They might not openly say it, like they do with Dean, but I think it's all there. There were all these little scenes that Jared did perfectly that showed us the Sam that is hidden under the Sam he's showing on the outside (does that make sense?). And Bobby said it in this episode: Sam is drowning. What I did see is a Sam who, after the first episode, never really seemed happy that his brother was no longer in hell, who snuck out to secret meetings with a demon, who chose to listen to and trust a demon over his own brother.I think in order to survive he had to shut out all emotions. He's been doing that for months. Even with Dean back, it's not that easy to go back to being as open about your feelings as before. I think what happened in Mystery Spot comes into play here as well; Sam shut everything and everyone out of his live in order to get Dean back; and he did, only to lose him again, this time for good, as it seemed. If that doesn't break you, I don't know what will. Sometimes, even though you feel all the joy and love in the world, you just can't show it on the outside. It's safer to stay hidden where it's safe, just in case it happens again. I think Sam was subconsiously fighting embracing the fact that Dean was back in his life, because he was too afraid to lose him again. I'm rambling, sorry. Blame the alcohol I'm enjoying right now
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Post by Silwyna on May 15, 2009 20:55:28 GMT 1
Mick, what happened with your post!?
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Post by mick on May 15, 2009 20:55:30 GMT 1
Heh, Sil, you replied to a post I deleted because I decided I didn't like it and it didn't make sense!!! And now I can't remember what I said anyways! ;D
I'm very wishy-washy today. ;D
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Post by Silwyna on May 15, 2009 20:56:56 GMT 1
LOL I know the feeling. Good thing I came here in time to read it It gave me lots to think about
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Post by yor on May 16, 2009 0:10:18 GMT 1
Silke, where did you watch it?
I will always believe that Sam had a very flawed, human reaction to his circumstances and the events of his life. I will never blame him for it. Like Silke, I can see the reasoning clearly.
I think his reactions were very human, very realistic. Not typical perfect TV human. It's why I like him all the more for it. TV lead characters usually only dabble with the wrong thing so we will always "like" them. He got to the point where we fully disliked him. But you know what, there's people in my life I fully dislike because they react badly to the things they've gone through. I have to remind myself I haven't gone through the things they have. You know what, Dean hasn't gone through the things Sam has either.
And Sam can't judge Dean either. Absolutely. These boys have a LOT of healing to do and the only thing that is certain is this. As with the Adama men, we will NEVER see enough to meet our needs.
Also remember Sam's ability to think is tainted. He's hearing WRONG messages. His thinking is clouded by that blood. I will be curious to see if they find the need to detox him OR keep him on a minimal level of blood in the future. Has he completely changed? Is there hope for him?
As for trusting Ruby. I point out the number of times that Dean has also trusted Ruby to come through for them. Sam in general has a more trusting nature and has ALWAYS been more willing to accept that ONE demon might be trustworthy. He knows that not all demons are evil, etc. I will also never condemn him for believing her when Dean wouldn't. Dean doesn't trust ANYONE outside the family so his judgment in who to trust is an unfair scale.
When it boils down to it... Both boys knew there was just something not right with what was going on. Sam was blinded by the spirit of John in his soul. I kept thinking of the scene where John was telling Sam to kill him so the YED would die. He wasn't considering the guilt he would heap on his son... Killing his own father? Sam was in that place this whole season.
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Post by yor on May 16, 2009 2:06:13 GMT 1
Sam will have his own share of guilt... Like I said, I'm wondering if he's not going to be able to be "healed" and will consider suicide... Season 5 will be partly about Dean trying to find a way to "save or kill Sam".
He's an addict. He's far from good now. He's a monster. He didn't kill the girl, but it's bad enough. He told Ruby to do it. Bad enough. He as much did it.
I disagree that by owning it he negates the manipulation. He didn't know he was being manipulated when he acknowledged he had become a monster. Recall, I still haven't seen the very end. He owned it before all that had happened. He can cut himself some slack knowing that he was manipulated as well.
Could you honestly not feel for him when he heard the manipulated call? Had he heard the original call, the episode would have gone FAR differently. Or at least, when Dean showed up and called to him, he would have finally stopped. I believe that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have needed to change the call. The demons and angels BOTH knew the boys couldn't be together.
The Dean weakness was the ploy... At one point, Dean was weak. We all saw it. Dean admitted it. By the time Dean's strength returned, Sam was too ill, too far gone to see the change. He is an addict. Bobby sees this which is why he makes Dean continually go after Sam.
To be honest, there wasn't a single surprise in the episode, which disappointed me. Too predictable. And I was a bit disappointed in Dean's lack of 'fire'... His speeches were "perty", but I didn't "feel" the Dean Winchester "heat of battle" fight vibe...
I agree with another comment I read elsewhere... This finale lacked action... perhaps that was it. It was a thinking man's finale. I'm not used to that.
I was let down. I expected more.
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