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Post by yor on Apr 25, 2009 1:16:47 GMT 1
Unless of course, Sam's just superhero healer because of the demon blood, but then that should be addressed...
(that thought has also crossed my mind.)
Curse this show... I WANT ANSWERS AND I WANT THEM NOW!!!!
Do we get a new episode next week? JB will be here. We can watch together (with my mom?).
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Post by mick on Apr 25, 2009 2:20:59 GMT 1
Sam's just superhero healer because of the demon bloodI think it's because the writers wanted to have that last scene with them burning Adam's body, and it wouldn't have worked without both boys there, because they also wanted Dean's realization that Sam has become John to be said. People like the hurt comfort of DeanI don't think it's the viewers as much as it's the writers. I still stand by my theory that the writers love to see Jensen in any sort of pain, although, I would strike out the "comfort" part; I've seen Dean hurt, but I've never really seen the comfort. This hit me again last night--when Dean got Sam off that table of doom, he touched him, kept talking calmly to him. I don't know that we've ever really seen Sam do that. The most touching I can recall was in "Faith," and that was more Sam trying to help Dean then comfort. Of course, we all know Dean isn't into all the "chick-flick" stuff, but still. Both times Dean was in the hospital, Sam was next to him, but there was still a distance, whereas I think if the roles were reversed, the distance wouldn't be there. Dean of ALL PEOPLE should know it's possible to have fathered a childI don't think that was all there was to it. Dean always held his dad up, and to find out that while he was home, taking care of Sam, having lost his childhood and not having any say in it, not to mention that he probably has a little memory of what his father was like before Mary died, and then to find out his dad had this whole other life with a kid who got what him and Sam were robbed of--yeah, he's angry. Dean doesn't voice emotions well, and we've seen many times where hurt comes out as anger. Dean was feeling alot more than anger. When you mentioned the evil thing--this was my problem with the whole "powers" thing and why I never liked it. Jared seems to love it (based on a few vids from the most recent con), but way back when when they first started "teasing" about it, I had a bad feeling. I agree with what Jensen said at the con--I like it when the brothers are working together. Disagreements, fights, that kind of thing I can handle, because that's par for the course with siblings. But the powers thing is something totally different. As far as Sam using his powers on the angels, I would honestly throw something at the TV if they did that. I already had a hard enough time having him kill a demon when an angel couldn't. If he could kill angels too--and actually did--I think it would be very difficult to redeem the character. Don't duck, Yor. It seems we've pretty much always had opposite opinions of the boys (I think I would have to duck if I posted how I feel about Sam right now; I'm going to try to wait it out until the end of the season and see what happens before I am sure of them), but that is why I enjoy discussing it with you. It would be boring if we all felt the same way--just a bunch of "ITA's!" ;D And, as far as I know, there are no more hiatuses (I can't remember where I read that, though). I had read that these last 4 episodes (starting with this one), were going to air without any breaks, so the finale should air on May 14th. You guys are going to have so much fun watching together!!!!
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Post by yor on Apr 25, 2009 2:42:53 GMT 1
I wasn't simplifying Dean's response... Obviously there is WAY more to his response... BUT the simply logistics of it... *wink* That part was funny to me.
I'll be honest... They (writers) make my man VERY HARD TO LIKE, much less love... He's become everything that PISSED US OFF about John... That's what pisses me off about the direction the writers took with the boys. They've divided us. We have to love Dean now and hate Sam. It is getting harder and harder to like Sam. I can see it. (Well, I don't loathe him, but I can certain smack him but hard.)
As for the hurt/ comfort part, it's a discussion that goes way back in fanfiction writing... how we LOVE to see our favorite characters in agony and pain and horrible medical situations and then miraculously they survive... We torture them... Look at some of the crap on Fanfic. All they do is find a new way to seriously injure the boys, so the other can worry and cry over the other. There's no plot other than that. The writer's do a touch of it...
However, you are very right... Dean is the one who 'touches'... Sam is shown at a distance, yet caring... In the chair... Trying to solve... VERY interesting observation. Was it an accident? Was it Jensen? The writers?
A good convention question!!!
BTW... I'm screwing the work I have to do and writing my medical missing scene.
While doing so, I'm rewatching... The scene where he sticks him finger in JP's side??? YUCK!
AND yet... JP's TORSO goes on FOREVER!!!
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Post by mick on Apr 25, 2009 3:59:20 GMT 1
The scene where he sticks him finger in JP's sideOoh, I squirmed and had to look away at that! We have to love Dean now and hate SamWell, we don't have to . I don't want to love one and hate the other, either, which is why I'm going to try my hardest to wait until the end (and go unspoiled!) before I make any decisions about how I feel. Ooh, we could make it a whole fate vs free choice thing, like on the show! Was it an accident? Was it Jensen? The writers? Ooh, it is a good question! I always like questions like that (or stuff about the show or filming--did you see where Jensen said in "Lazarus Rising" that the dirt as he came up through the ground was crushed Oreos? I love stuff like that), but instead we get, "Tell us about the pranks!" Maybe it was a collaboration of the director and Jensen? There's no plot other than thatAnd I can't stand that...pain for the sake of pain.
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Post by Silwyna on Apr 25, 2009 15:20:36 GMT 1
It's the amazing WB/CW medical plan! All your boo-boo's will disappear instantly!!!I need that plan!!! I also read somewhere that his picture is in the episode.I read it too and noticed the sign when I watched the ep. It's sweet that they keep remembering him this way. However, I did wonder about her knowing John's name. DIdn't they use alias's... John used his real name? BUT I have to re-watch...I guess that once John found out about Adam, he told him and his mother his real name. When the ghoul took over Adam's form, he had his memories and therefore knew John's name. That's my theory, anyway. JB will be here. You do know that I'm totally envisioning you with Jamie right now, right? I think it's because the writers wanted to have that last scene with them burning Adam's body, and it wouldn't have worked without both boys there, because they also wanted Dean's realization that Sam has become John to be said.They could have at least let him look really, really pale or something *grumble* As far as Sam using his powers on the angels, I would honestly throw something at the TV if they did that. I already had a hard enough time having him kill a demon when an angel couldn't. If he could kill angels too--and actually did--I think it would be very difficult to redeem the character.It could be a bad angel though, someone like Uriel. We know now that not all angels are good, so it could be only self-defense if he had to do it. They've divided us. We have to love Dean now and hate Sam.I know that's true from what I read online, but I'm happy to say that I don't feel that way at all. I don't hate Sam! I don't like him any less than I liked him in Season One. He's hurting just as much as Dean does, he simply copes with it differently than Dean. I've read an awesome fic today where the author called his behavior "slow suicide" and I think she's spot on! Sam wants to end it and he doesn't care what happens with him. He'll do anything necessary, hence using his powers, and should it kill him in the end, he's fine with that because he has nothing to lose anymore. That doesn't make me hate Sam, it makes me love him even more. Look at some of the crap on Fanfic. All they do is find a new way to seriously injure the boys, so the other can worry and cry over the other. There's no plot other than that.I know! When I started reading fanfiction, most stories were actually that - a story! They told a story with a beginning, a middle and an ending. There was lots of hurt in it which I LOVE but it had plot! There was more than just hurting the character. Today, it's hard to find a complete story that has monsters and the boys researching and then killing the monster and saving the innocent (and of course getting terribly hurt in the process ). BTW... I'm screwing the work I have to do and writing my medical missing scene.
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Post by yor on Apr 25, 2009 18:24:56 GMT 1
I like the slow suicide theory... He's like John now in that he's so driven he doesn't care about life. He said as much in the show. There is nothing else for him. He said that's why Adam should hunt.
That was an excellent observation.
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Post by mick on Apr 25, 2009 20:45:12 GMT 1
he has nothing to lose anymore he's so driven he doesn't care about lifeAnd this is where I feel for Dean (come on, you know I can't help it! ). Sam still has his brother--heck, he lost him to hell and was lucky enough to get him back. John may have lost his wife, but he had his sons. The problem is that both John and Sam are tunnel-visioned when it comes to vengeance, they don't (or maybe can't) see the people around them that they may be hurting because of their actions (or, they see it and just don't care). It's like they just think they'll deal with the fall-out later after it's over (if they survive). The problem is, as Dean told Sam, it's never over. It could be a bad angel thoughThis would still bother me. Maybe it has more to do with my own personal beliefs. I have a difficult time with him killing demons with his mind as it is, just like I have a hard time with the bad angels and good demons stuff. To me, a demon is a demon and an angel is an angel, and a human shouldn't be able to kill either with their mind (which goes back to my issues with the whole powers thing).
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Post by Silwyna on Apr 25, 2009 20:58:55 GMT 1
Sam still has his brotherSo does Dean I'm not sure if Sam still thinks of Dean as a given. He lost him before and with everything that happened, I think he believes that their relationship is so screwed that it'll never get back to how it was before. It's obvious, even for Sam, that Dean doesn't really trust him anymore, so I think he's afraid that one day Dean is just going to leave him. The same goes for Dean too, of course. I think he has the same fear (only for different reasons). He thinks Sam doesn't need him anymore and will eventually leave him behind. I agree with you that Sam and John just see their revenge and forget everything around them in order to get that. I think that's why Sam keeps using his powers no matter what.
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Post by mick on Apr 25, 2009 21:57:50 GMT 1
think he believes that their relationship is so screwed that it'll never get back to how it was before.You know, Jared said pretty much the same thing, I think at the LA Con (I remember seeing a vid of it). He thinks Sam doesn't need him anymore and will eventually leave him behind. I think this has always been one of Dean's fears, starting with Sam going to Stanford (even though there was nothing wrong with Sam going to school, for Dean, it was a big thing), to the two times he left during the series. In fact, I think abandonment is just a general issue with Dean--John left him, too. I think he's afraid that one day Dean is just going to leave him. Personally, I think this is something that needs to happen for both of them. Dean needs to know that he can leave, and Sam needs to know that Dean can leave him (and not with dying, just walking out the door and not being together anymore). So does Dean Not really. Sam isn't Sam anymore--he's John! Both boys have changed, really. Dean is still trying to save Sam--heck, he risked the wrath of an Archangel to save him--but he is still losing Sam.
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Post by yor on Apr 26, 2009 1:01:35 GMT 1
Sam's lost. He thought he had it all figured out. He didn't think he needed to hunt. Bam, he does. He didn't think he needed his family, lost dad, then worst of all, lost Dean in the most horrific way and for a terrible reason... Bam, he's screwed again. Could he even be over compensating for how he fought it all the other years? (subconsciously?)
Sam is totally lost. He's in the worst sort of depression and this is the only way he can cope. He's convinced himself this is how he goes on. Maybe he's trying to be superhunter in order to prove he's not evil and in exchange he's blind to what he's actually doing... Classic depression symptoms. Course it doesn't help that everyone is all scared of him.
Then there's Dean. He thought he knew what was going on, but as he figures out he doesn't, he gets to do all kinds of heroic stuff. Everyone's saving him and building him up and telling him he's the hero. He's switched outlooks with Sam. He now sees what Sam once did, but can't have it.
You said you feel for Dean? Well, we can't help but feel for Dean... that's all we get. Dean Dean Dean, with occasional snipits of Sam that usually only tick us off.
We really don't know all that much about how he's really thinking... Not in comparison. Dean's emotions are all out there. Sam's are hidden from us.
I like the suicide... He's given up deep down. He sees no hope. It's too close to my own family right now. I can really see it in Sam. Whether they intended or not...
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Post by mick on Apr 26, 2009 20:07:43 GMT 1
You said you feel for Dean? Well, we can't help but feel for Dean... that's all we getHonestly, I did feel for Sam, especially in "I Know What You Did...," seeing him begging the crossroads demon--that was heartbreaking. But lately, I can't. I can't stand to hear him tell Dean (and Ruby, heck even Chuck) how much Dean has changed, how "weak" he is. Personally, I think he's putting what he feels about himself onto Dean. As harsh as this may sound, and I know everyone has their vices and such, but him being an addict, I think, is a sign of weakness. He wants to be in control of his life, because for so long he wasn't. He couldn't control the demon blood being fed to him, couldn't control what happened to Jess, couldn't control Dean's choice, but this, he can control. Pamela is right--he thinks he's doing this for the right reasons--he thinks he's doing it to save the world, to save Dean, but I feel that he's doing it for the control, for the power it gives him, and for the vengeance. He's not only lying to Dean, he's lying to himself. Correct if I'm wrong (and I may be--I'm basing this on something I read a long time ago, so I could have it wrong), but don't addicts always insist that have things under control, that they can handle it? I think this is where Sam is. He's deluding himself. This, again, is my problem with the whole powers thing. I could have handled the vision thing, but going this route is making him, as Chuck said, "unsympathetic." I really hope the writers know where they are going, because if they aren't careful, I feel that they may not be able to redeem the character. I do think this is Kripke always planned to have Sam dance with the darkness in him, starting all the way back in season 2 with the whole "save him or kill him" thing (ugh!). I don't think Dean's storyline was planned that far in advance (and I'm basing that on interviews I've read from Kripke and Jensen). I think maybe the writers got carried away with getting Dean into the mytharc at the expense of Sam's storyline. Of course, I could be totally wrong, and for some reason maybe they don't want us to know what's going on with Sam, maybe they want us to not like him right now, and then all of a sudden they'll pull a whole switcheroo and Dean will end up being the evil one . I do have to give props to Jared, because it seems to me that he is just loving every second of Sam going "darkside."
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Post by yor on Apr 26, 2009 20:20:22 GMT 1
Yep...
OK... SO, I'm trying to clean (around my toe issues) and I've got SPN in the background. The hotel episode, where Sam gets drunk. I'm wondering...
Do you think Possibly one of the reasons Sam continues to be so willing to give in to the "dark side" is because of Dean's promise to kill him if he goes to far? Maybe he is suicidal and he knows Dean will do it.
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Post by Silwyna on Apr 27, 2009 19:53:29 GMT 1
Do you think Possibly one of the reasons Sam continues to be so willing to give in to the "dark side" is because of Dean's promise to kill him if he goes to far? Maybe he is suicidal and he knows Dean will do it. Wow, I never thought about it like this. I don't think he consciously thinks like this, but subconsciously, who knows? It could be possible. but him being an addict, I think, is a sign of weakness. He wants to be in control of his life, because for so long he wasn't. He couldn't control the demon blood being fed to him, couldn't control what happened to Jess, couldn't control Dean's choice, but this, he can control. Pamela is right--he thinks he's doing this for the right reasons--he thinks he's doing it to save the world, to save Dean, but I feel that he's doing it for the control, for the power it gives him, and for the vengeance. He's not only lying to Dean, he's lying to himself. Correct if I'm wrong (and I may be--I'm basing this on something I read a long time ago, so I could have it wrong), but don't addicts always insist that have things under control, that they can handle it? I think this is where Sam is. He's deluding himself.I agree with this. If Sam really had things under control and truly believed he's doing 100 % right, he wouldn't lie about it. I don't have any doubt that in the end he'll come out of it on the good side though. He's not going to go so far that not even Dean can forgive him. I can't really see that happening. He's too smart for that, addiction or not I do have to give props to Jared, because it seems to me that he is just loving every second of Sam going "darkside."Yes, he seems to enjoy this a lot!
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Post by yor on Apr 27, 2009 19:59:31 GMT 1
It makes me curious to see the episode where Bobby and Dean Detox Sam...
I'm SO IMPATIENT!
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Post by Silwyna on Apr 27, 2009 20:21:10 GMT 1
Me too!!!
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