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Post by mick on Mar 21, 2009 20:31:11 GMT 1
Meant to respond to this earlier...
I was bothered that Sam isn't feeling remorse that he killed the host
Actually, didn't Dean do this with the torture? I thought Sam only could kill the demon, which is why he was so adamant earlier in the season about using his powers, because the host was saved? In fact, no one--Sam, Dean, or the angels--ever said anything about the host. Maybe the host was no longer there, a la Ruby--maybe the host died when Alst was hit with the lightning bolt in the last episode?
or even Ruby..
As cool as this would be (because we all know how much I detest this character!), is it even possible that Dean was able to torture Ruby? According to the timeline they've set up, Dean didn't start torturing until 3 months after he got into hell. Wasn't Ruby already with Sam by that point? I was under the impression she showed up almost right away and started in with Sam. Unless, of course, who we're seeing isn't Ruby--I've read speculation that maybe she's really Meg acting like she's Ruby.
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Post by Silwyna on Mar 21, 2009 20:44:59 GMT 1
Oohhh, interesting!!! I never even thought about that! You're right, it is weired that Ruby would have been back so soon. Didn't Lillith say she send Ruby far, far away? I always thought that meant some deep, dark place in hell ... It would be awesome if it really wasn't Ruby. I think Sam would have recognized Meg, after all, she was in him for a week, he must have gotten to know her very well, but ... it could be anyone. I'd love that! Actually, didn't Dean do this with the torture?If the lightening didn't kill the host, it had to be Dean. The way he stabbed that knife into the body, I don't think anyone could have survived that. Plus all the internal bleeding he must have caused with the torture - Alistair was spitting up a lot of blood. because we all know how much I detest this character!You're not alone there ...
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Post by mick on Mar 21, 2009 21:48:29 GMT 1
Alistair was spitting up a lot of bloodNot to mention his throat! I think Sam would have recognized Meg, after all, she was in him for a week, he must have gotten to know her very wellSounds dirty! Seriously, though, Ruby came to him at one of the lowest points in his life, offered him a chance at revenge...even if it is Meg, I don't know that he would have been in a place to recognize her. She was giving him something he felt he needed, and now he's so reliant on her, I don't think he could notice.
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Post by Silwyna on Mar 21, 2009 22:04:07 GMT 1
True!
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Post by yor on Mar 24, 2009 4:20:51 GMT 1
ok, so I wake up in the morning and as I try to go back to sleep and avoid thinking about the bad things right now, something occured to me that I'd literally forgotten...
Mick, I was TRYING really hard, really I was... to get angier with Sam... I was trying to be more upset with him about his superiority over Dean. Then it hit me. I couldn't. Now, I know I'm a Sam girl and always will be. I'm very much like him and have always thought more like him... But I had that head slapping duh, how could you forget "that" moment today...
Lilith couldn't hurt Sam... She tried to kill Sam and couldn't. That HAS to be giving him a subconscious ego boost at LEAST. In the back of his mind, if not in the front of his mind, he's thinking, "of COURSE I'm stronger than Dean. She can't KILL ME!" He's got to be feeling somewhat "superman-ish" in regards to her.Who wouldn't?
Then again, we've seen other Demons toss him around, so I'm curious to see how this plays out.
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Post by mick on Mar 24, 2009 12:39:10 GMT 1
Then again, we've seen other Demons toss him aroundNot recently though . To me, Sam is an addict. He thinks he's stronger than Dean, but he's only strong because of something "supernatural." If he didn't have the powers, if he wasn't drinking demon blood, him and Dean would be on even playing fields, I think. I've always felt that Sam's biggest flaw is his pride, and I see it strongly now. "Pride cometh before the fall," or something like that. Sam is like John, in that when it comes to what they want (Yed dead, Lilith dead) they are narrow minded, only focusing on the revenge and how to get it and not on anything else. Sam is falling...
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Post by yor on Mar 24, 2009 15:31:45 GMT 1
True, but Sam's pride got fueled by a healthy dose of lilith immunity... Dean would feel the Sam way if it were him.
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Post by mick on Mar 24, 2009 20:34:58 GMT 1
Dean would feel the Sam way if it were him.I can't say that I agree with this 100%. I think some of it comes from Sam's personality. Sam has always been prideful, he's always argued (I'm thinking specifically of his relationship with John here), and, up until this year, he was always the one who tried to see the good in the bad. Dean always did what his father told him, if it was evil, he killed. But he's always thought that demons were evil, etc. Yes, I think both boys have always felt different from society (heck, let's face it, they are ), they've always felt like they were "freaks," but it never seemed to bother Dean like it bothered Sam. I could see Dean fighting the powers, not embracing them, and certainly not listening to a demon. He's been alone before, been left before, so if he was in Sam's shoes, I don't see him as accepting of a demon as Sam has been. I see him killing her, actually, but that's just me. It's really a moot point, anyways. Mick, I was TRYING really hard, really I was... to get angier with SamI meant to respond to this earlier, but in my rush this morning, I forgot. I hope I didn't give you the impression that you had to agree with me--the fun (for me) comes in the debate. If we all agreed all the time, it would be boring!
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Post by yor on Mar 26, 2009 23:09:50 GMT 1
Mick I was merely trying to understand where you were coming from... I must tell you... there's very little we seem to agree on. However, I take comfort that I'm at least no longer alone. I wasn't liking isolation. As for your latest... Dean has listened to Demons... He listened to Ruby in the parking lot, he listened to the girl in the cellar, he listened to the crossroad's demon... I'm not sure where Sam is the problem here other than the hatred of Ruby. Even Dean accepted her help earlier this season. Dean is willing to use Demons when it serves his purpose. Right now, Sam sees a purpose to her. That has always annoyed me about Dean's argument. He's given a lot of lip against using demon information, but it seemed to me he didn't offer better solutions. Sometimes you have to use your enemy. They use you. It's war. Tactics are tactics. At the end of the vamp episode, Dean didn't like living in Sam's world. He got a taste of grey. He said as much. He has questioned on several occasions wondering if all of their kills were the right thing to do... Hello! That's the world Sam was struggling with his whole life, but John and Dean managed to ignore it. Kudos to Sam. I don't think that's looking for good in bad, because it has been clearly shown that there was reason to 'doubt'. Sam would see subtleties others didn't. Are you suggesting this was because of his demon blood? Interesting.... As much as I know Ruby is evil... part of me would like for her to be the real thing, simply to prove Sam's whole life as legitimate. No matter how much I hate her, she has done some good things, even if they were for the wrong reasons. People are alive because Ruby saved them. I am perfectly willing to admit that Sam's mind is tainted by the blood he is consuming. Hence the reason Dean is going to do the purging later this season. (Can't WAIT to see his reaction when he finds out... ballastic comes to mind!! Sam's butt will get kicked! fun stuff!) I don't understand your definition of prideful. I don't see it so much. I've always considered Dean more prideful in his (false) confidence. Sam was always more humble to me. I see Sam now as more confident, but I don't see it as pride. I like that he's finally sticking up for himself and taking the lead. Perhaps it seems more extreme to you because he was always in the backseat so to speak, before. I suppose it could be a fine line between confidence and pride... You think he's crossed it, I don't. When he argued he tried to get his family to see the other side of the story? I don't think he ever tried to see the 'good in the bad'. It didn't happen like that.... He merely saw it in key cases, such as the vampires and when the guy hadn't actually become a monster yet. I don't blame him. They were on a blind course and wouldn't listen... Ah ha... yes kids, "all this has happened before and will happen again... Sam has definitely become his father. He's on a singular track and he's not listening to Dean... The question is... Has Dean learned anything? Will he A. Fight Sam like he did not fight John and be a continual thorn in his side. (needs to start REALLY soon.) Saying, "I know what you're doing.... is no fight. B. Offer limited objection but ultimately go along with Sam until ultimately needing to fight him in the end (more what he's done so far) C. Break away now and work against Sam while still fighting lilith, eventually getting to the point where Sam will need him to defeat her. Just talking with JB... She pointed out that we really can't trust the Angels any more either... Cas distrust's things, Uriel was bad and Anna, well, I don't trust her either... The boys got no one to trust but US!!!!! Too much rambling from me!
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Post by mick on Mar 27, 2009 0:42:43 GMT 1
Are you suggesting this was because of his demon blood? Interesting....
No, but I agree that it's an interesting thought.
The pride thing is probably a pointless debate...everyone sees things differently.
I think all of it is just based on what the viewer sees, how they interpret what they see, how they feel about the characters, and how they relate to the characters.
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Post by yor on Mar 27, 2009 22:19:48 GMT 1
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