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Post by mick on Mar 20, 2009 23:40:06 GMT 1
Welcome, Bantum. He'd be possessed. Yeah, but I was thinking that he somehow becomes Lucifer. I don't know how they would do it, or even if they could. I think he was really worried about DeanI don't know--what he said was that Dean couldn't do it because he was too weak, not that he didn't want Dean to do it because he was worried it would bring back memories of hell. I think underneath he may have been worried, and I'll admit that he sounded somewhat worried in his tone of voice, but what he said led me to believe that he does really believe Dean to be too weak to do anything. And, to me, he also sounded almost condenscending, like he's the strong one now with all the power because his brother just can't cut it anymore. Of course, I find it ironic that Sam is there, saying Dean is too weak, while the thing that makes him strong is demon blood--something very unnatural. Oh, Sam {{gets my 8 foot ladde rot stand on and pat him on the head}}. It makes sense that he tried the same with JohnSomeone on TWOP made a couple of interesting points about John. First if he was "on the rack," how did he get out of hell? If the rack was anything like how we saw Dean at the end of last season, I don't think there's anyway he could have gotten off that thing by himself, and then made it out the door in the short amount of time it was open. Second, Cas said that as soon as they knew Dean was in hell, they went after him. He didn't say anything about them going after John, which leads me to believe that the demons had it wrong when they thought that John breaking would break the seal. That would create a huge rift between Sam and Dean and that could lead to the big confrontation. Honestly, I would rather see this then my theory! Sam still gets to play with the darkside without going 100% evil, there would still be hope that the brothers would once again be on the same page and fight against Lucifer together, and best of all, Ruby would be dead!
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Post by yor on Mar 21, 2009 0:06:36 GMT 1
I'm with Silke, I didn't see this as Sam being superior and Dean being "weak" in that way. I saw this as Sam being worried about Dean's emotional health. He was worried about exactly what DID happen. Dean cracked. Notice that with drinking the demon blood, Sam's also getting demon insight. (makes sense.) He knew Alastiar wasn't lying. He might have sensed Al was going to reveal something bad from hell and knew it wasn't going to go well for Dean to do the torture.
I also LOVED the scenes with Sam and Cas.
Al said he had John on for 100 years... he never said he never let him off...
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Post by mick on Mar 21, 2009 0:22:03 GMT 1
he never said he never let him offRight, so how did he get off to get out of hell? I didn't see this as Sam being superior and Dean being "weak"Okay, so after rewatching, I will say that Sam was worried, but I still think when he told Dean in the siren episode that he was weak, he meant it, because he said the same thing to Ruby (I also think he sounded kind of cocky when he said he was strong enough, but I guess that's open to interpretation). So, is he lying to Ruby or is he lying to Dean? Right now, I'd place my money on him lying to Dean, as it seems like it has become habit. He might have sensed Al was going to reveal something bad from hell and knew it wasn't going to go well for Dean to do the torture.I think it was more because he's heard Dean confess about the torture and what it's done to him. Plus, he knows how the demons love to attack Dean's self-worth. As for sensing what Al was going to stay, I hope that's not the case. Do you guys think that Dean will tell Sam what he learned about Dean being the beginning of the end? And does anyone know yet what that thing was around Dean's head? ?ETA: Nevermind--I read the answer elsewhere.
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Post by yor on Mar 21, 2009 2:26:49 GMT 1
Perhaps you're not thinking of Dean's confession to Sam at the car about how he's never going to be able to forgive himself for the torture he did... How there was a hole in him... The angst and heart ache he was always going to carry?
Now, here comes the angels take Dean against his will and force him to torture...
How about Alst was in a new meatsuit? Dean was going to torture some innocent human body and mind somewhere inside it, here on Earth?
(Alst... had to switch abbreviations because I kept thinking we were talking about my alter ego)
There would be no physical separation for Dean now... It wouldn't even be behind him in hell. WHY WOULD SAM NOT BE GENUINELY WORRIED FOR DEAN? Why would that be Sam's evil side?
I have to say, Dean is to a certain extent, Weakened... by his own admission, he's got a huge hole in him, a guilt that will plague him.
If I'm not mistaken, Sam will have a similar weakness soon enough.
I didn't see this as Sam going "ah ha! I will prove I am superior to you!" I saw it as... "SHIT! What can I do to save Dean from this? (As DEAN would also have done if the situation was reversed in whatever way he could.) How can I fight angels? Ah ha! I need to kick some ass and I can do it. Oh Ruby... I need to "super size myself".
Remember he was freaked out by whatever it was that was powerful enough to kill angels. He said as much. He asked them why they were coming to them for something that powerful... His mind is tainted and he went to his "unnatural talents."
He's not totally comfortable with them... or he would have looked Cas straight in the eye... but he can't...
Ruby, by the way... is evil... we know it...
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Post by mick on Mar 21, 2009 3:41:18 GMT 1
Why would that be Sam's evil side?
I think I'm not explaining myself the way I mean to. I don't mean that this has anything to do with Sam being/going evil. All I meant was that Sam does think that Dean is weak. Yes, he is right, and I understand all the reasons why that you posted. Dean has come back weaker--I agree with that. What I was saying is that Sam did mean what he said to Dean in the siren episode. He told Dean then that he was weak, that he couldn't get the job done. Granted, I think it came out colder because of the spell, but he said it. Then, he told Dean he didn't mean it. This episode, he tells Ruby that Dean is weak, so what I was trying to say was that Sam does think Dean is weak, that he lied to Dean when he said he didn't mean it. He does think that way. I do think he sounded prideful when he said he was going to take care of Alst because his brother couldn't, and I think that that is part of the powers thing, of him becoming addicted to them. I don't think he said Dean was weak because of the powers--he said it because he thinks it, end of story.
Was Sam worried? Yes, most definitely. If nothing else that was apparent in the hospital scene. That doesn't change the fact, for me, at least, that he does think what he said, that he did mean it when he said Dean was weak. Of course, if Dean wasn't weak, I would cry foul, but that's besides the point.
Have I explained myself any better? It's so hard sometimes for me over the internet...
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Post by jensensbabe on Mar 21, 2009 3:47:16 GMT 1
I'm TOTALLY flipping OUT!
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Post by yor on Mar 21, 2009 4:31:32 GMT 1
Here's what I'm thinking... Dean is weakened. Based on what you've said above (which was more clear), I have to agree somewhat. I don't think Dean has shown us a side since his return that can fight this battle either, even before last night. He lacks spark, initiative, drive, whatever... It's not there. Obviously there's reason to be gone. I'm not stressing over this supposed lie of Sam's. It doesn't bug me because it's obvious. Dean knows it. He knows he isn't 100%. It's not a secret. As always, these guys can't talk about it. If they couldn't we wouldn't have anything to rant about. Dean has now fallen apart. I don't believe ultimately Dean WILL be able to be the hero Cas wants him to be WITH OUT SAM! They are a pair. This is what they are going to have to learn. This will be the battle to fight. It will take BOTH Winchesters to fight this, but it will take some time to get BACK to both... Sam's gotta dabble naughty first! On that note, I was bothered that Sam isn't feeling remorse that he killed the host. Course, maybe we didn't see it because he was worried about Dean... BUT, or maybe we haven't see it yet... My boy's going Vader...
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Post by mick on Mar 21, 2009 4:32:47 GMT 1
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yor
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Post by yor on Mar 21, 2009 6:12:04 GMT 1
Good thought... or even Ruby... But they won't admit it... and Rub's out for some 'blood.' (giggle giggle. I had to do it She's lacking...)
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Post by Silwyna on Mar 21, 2009 13:36:56 GMT 1
LOL yor They are a pair. This is what they are going to have to learn. This will be the battle to fight.THAT'S what I want to see! J'babe, take a deep breath, everything will be okay
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Post by mick on Mar 21, 2009 13:45:32 GMT 1
It will take BOTH Winchesters to fight this, but it will take some time to get BACK to both
I totally agree with this, and this is how I think they are going to go into season 5. I do think Dean will get his bad-assery back--eventually.
My boy's going Vader
No surprise there--I saw that coming. What I hope is that, unlike Vader, Sam will eventually listen to those who love him, before he gets to the point of no return.
What else I found creepy was when Ruby told Sam that fire was "his friend." That kind of gave me chills.
It doesn't bug me because it's obvious
Oh, yeah, I know it's obvious. I'm just glad they didn't wash it away with "he was under a spell and didn't mean it." He did mean it, which also, to me, anyways, shows a change in Sam (just like Sil mentioned in the hospital when he demanded Cas heal Dean). Maybe he told Dean that he didn't feel that way because he doesn't want Dean to think it--he wants his brother the way he was. They both want the other the way there were. I think, though, that right now, the powers aren't going to be a concern of Dean's. He's completely broken. Just like I think, eventually, it is going to have to be Sam to make that final decision to go all the dark or not, I think it's going to come to Dean to pull himself up. They both need each other's hlep/support, no doubt, but it is going to be each boy individually to stand on their own, which will make them stronger, and then when they come together to battle Lucifer, they will not lose!
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Post by Silwyna on Mar 21, 2009 16:15:39 GMT 1
which will make them stronger, and then when they come together to battle Lucifer, they will not lose! Lucifer won't even know what hit him when they're done with him
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Post by Silwyna on Mar 21, 2009 16:43:05 GMT 1
I forgot to ask ... And does anyone know yet what that thing was around Dean's head??ETA: Nevermind--I read the answer elsewhere.What was it?
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Post by mick on Mar 21, 2009 19:09:20 GMT 1
What was it?
Someone at TWOP said it was an EEG, which is used to monitor brain activity.
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Post by Silwyna on Mar 21, 2009 19:26:51 GMT 1
Ah, okay, thanks.
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