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Post by Silwyna on Feb 6, 2009 20:19:20 GMT 1
I knew it was the agent! There was just something about him ....
Okay, the fight ... wow! About time they both were completely honest, even if the circumstances weren't the best. They both know how to hurt the other one most. I don't think that Dean really sees Sam sleeping with Madison as wrong, just as I don't think that Sam really thinks he's a better hunter than Dean. Stronger maybe, due to his powers, but not better.
I think their problem is that they are both hurting too much. Dean's been in hell, so has Sam, even if it hasn't been the real one. They're both having problems dealing with that, so they can't really help the other one or be there for him completely.
I think Dean does have a right to know about Ruby, because ... their relationship is based on trust. They've always looked out for each other and had each other's back. Having secrets like that from Dean is destroying that trust. Of course Sam is allowed to have secrets, but this ... I think it's wrong to keep it from Dean.
This is like "Asylum, Part 2,"
I thought the same! Sam said almost the same at the end of both episodes, that he didn't mean anything of what he said and that it was all the spell's fault. I didn't fully believe it the first time, and I really don't believe it this time.
I think Dean needs to do the leaving this time
I don't think Dean's ever going to leave Sam. I think it's Sam who will leave again ... with Ruby (*urgh*).
AWESOME ACTING!!!! And I loved Bobby!
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Post by mick on Feb 6, 2009 20:52:15 GMT 1
I thought the same! Sam said almost the same at the end of both episodes, that he didn't mean anything of what he said and that it was all the spell's fault. I didn't fully believe it the first time, and I really don't believe it this time.YES!!! I noticed this as well, and I fully agree with you that those feelings are there. Both boys have things that they resent about each other--I think it's probably natural given that they are siblings, and especially considering their lives. I have to once again thank Sil for giving us a place to discuss this show honestly and not be afraid to post our opinions. I don't know anyone who watches it that I can talk to (well, Shawn will watch occassionally, but really the only character I think he's invested in is the car!), and he certainly doesn't feel about these characters the way I do, so I really look forward to coming here each week to see what everyone thinks. ETA: After reading the quote that Sil posted, I have to say that I loved how Dean looked like a little kid when he said his "stripper" line. But then, once he was on the case, he hardly looked at the girls!
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Post by yor on Feb 7, 2009 1:38:03 GMT 1
I agree... I love good discussion... that being said, here's a long ramble. I'm just not sure what Sam's done that is so horrible. I don't see his actions as so, so we may have to agree to disagree... not much new. Maybe it's because I am sick of the Dean martyrdom... I miss the balance. The "poor Dean", he's chosen by God so he owes them, he's got the angel's, etc. frustrates me. He's great, don't get me wrong, but he made his choices. Sam never asked him too. Sam never asked to be brought back. Sam fought like hell to save him. Sam never asked him to devote his life, etc. These were Dean's issues. We've discussed this a lot. I also sympathize a lot with Sam for the sheer fact, that he WANTS to TRY and make something good out of this whole mess and no one will let him try. No one trusts him... no one, in essence, has faith in him. That's REALLY hard to deal with. Ruby is the only one who sees it for whatever reason, honest or not. That's why he's drawn to her. Sure, there's the whole power corrupts, but I know where he's at. I've been in positions of power that allowed me to bend a few rules in order to make things happen. Was the temptation there to then break some because it was going to benefit the situation? Heck yes! Hard to resist. That's his load to bear. Bear with me... I think I may ramble, but there might be something here. A random thought. Sam came to 'us' from a healthier place. We saw him leave the family and make a life, but get sucked back in. Some call that selfish, I call it healthier. Ramble... There is a difference between the family that is formed between marriage and the family created by marriage, ie: children. If there weren't two kinds, there would be no diversity and humanity would have died out. If we don't reach outside the family... well, gross.
Children are created to be different. They aren't expected to do the same thing and be the same person... to have the same goals. They are encouraged in most cases to pursue their strengths and interests, while still maintaining the basic familial bond.
A marriage is designed to create a 'unit' (for lack of a better word) with the same goals, plans, etc. It's designed to unify.
Dean and John seemed to forget this?Sam told Dean he would stop using the powers. He did. Then time and time again he was reminded that he had a chance to do something good with them and couldn't. I have complete faith that Sam truly believes he can manage what he's doing. I don't think he's doing it because he thinks he'll go evil and Dean will pull him back. That's my (our) projected feelings. Sam's trying desperately to get back to healthy, for himself AND DEAN. If he can end Lilith, the big bad is over. He wants to be old with something, not like the magicians. I refuse to believe, something better for Dean, after all he's been through, is not part of that. That's him seeing something better and realizing he might have a way to get there. *snarky comment* As a typical youngest, no one will really listen to what he wants, so he has to go behind their back. (been there, done that.) He knows he will never bring Dean to the same place, convince him. Dean is too far gone and always has been. So, he does what he can to move. I'd LOVE to see Dean leave. I think it would be HEALTHY for him. But alas, it will probably be Sam leaving. As for their comments... I do believe they were based in true feelings, BUT they were under the effects of a venom. Hello... Dean cut Sam's throat without flinching or hesitating. That's powerful stuff. If I'm correct, they were told to 'discuss' it... They were supposed to be as hurtful as possible. They pulled out the stops. If you tell me to get nasty, I can do it. I could make it happen easily. I can bring a person to tears in an instant, and I don't need venom. Here's a final thought for this long, drawn out essay... Dean sends Sam through the door and yet he simply stays there. He surely is aware that Dean is about to kill him, but he doesn't move... What's going on? Does he deep down really not believe Dean will do it? I don't think it seems like he's that physically stunned... What's up with it? And finally? Why then, didn't he try to use some whammy? OR WAS HE TRYING TO USE WHAMMY? In other words, was anyone else struck by that scene?
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Post by yor on Feb 7, 2009 3:29:35 GMT 1
Ok, so I'm rewatching... Dean's conversation really ticked me off. He wouldn't even listen to Sam... wouldn't go see him to see for himself if there was signs of a 'spell' and then the Madison comment? It pisses me off as the viewer! I LOVE IT! The tension between the boys is awesome! And then how SAD is it when Sam hears that all Dean wants is a little brother again... It hurt my heart. Ok, and here's a rant... Why can Ruby help them some times and not others? Dean can't have it both ways... Yeah, ok, he won't ever fully trust her (and Mick hates her) BUT... she's done nothing but help them. What happened between them in hell and why can he forget that when she's helping them? Yep, I'm seriously wondering if Sam was trying to work mojo and actually screamed no no to stop Bobby so he could try?? (probably not) I like Bobby's dig on the drinking too... Dean's doing too much.
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Post by mick on Feb 7, 2009 5:17:48 GMT 1
I love this place! The "poor Dean", See, and I've always felt like the show was pushing "poor Sam." Poor Sam who didn't want his life, who has always wanted normal, who was thrust back into the life, lost his girlfriend, forced to drink demon blood, no one understands him, etc, etc. Sam, to me, has always been the victim--Dean let him get away with alot, I think, alot more than I would have. I'm tired of the victim Sam-he's making these choices, he should pay for them. I honestly can't get behind the whole "he's using his powers for good" thing. If they're so good, he wouldn't be sneaking around. Now, I know there are all sorts of reasons for him to do so, but he's still purposefully hiding things. I've read others who say Sam is like an addict, and I would have to agree. The powers are like a drug--he thinks he has it under control, that he knows what he's doing. Dean is trying to stop him, but Sam won't stop. bend a few rules in order But he's doing more than bending a few rules. He flirting with down-right evil, hanging out with demons, listening to her and not his own brother. No one trusts him... no one, in essence, has faith in him.I can't blame them. He's using demon-giving powers, listening to Ruby...they lost their mom to a demon, were raised to fight that kind of evil. I wouldn't have faith in him, either. Dean and John seemed to forget this?John, yes. Dean never knew. He was raised to always put Sam first. Dean never had a childhood like Sam did, probably never had the chance to make choices like Sam did. His world consisted of following his father's order and being a parent to his brother. Dean made sure that Sam had a childhood. I don't think Sam ever really thought about what Dean gave up for him (and I'm not talking about his life), the sacrifices Dean made for him, and yet he looks down on his brother as "weak." Everything for Dean has always been about Sam because that is how he was raised; that is all he knows. So he didn't forget--he never knew. As a typical youngest, no one will really listen to what he wantsOkay, not to be insensitive, but I don't think this is the case (and it's not the case with everyone's family; all of us in my family growing up were listened to, no matter what our birth order). I don't think Dean is not listening because Sam is the youngest, and I don't think Sam is sneaking around behind Dean's back because he's the youngest. Sam is doing what he wants to do because he wants to do it, plain and simple. Tha is part of the character that I have seen since season 1--Sam will always do what he wants to to do without thinking about how it affects others. Dean is too far gone and always has beenI don't understand this. He has always been too far gone where? I don't think it seems like he's that physically stunnedThat's how I saw it..he looked like he was in physical pain to me. Dean's conversation really ticked me off. He wouldn't even listen to Sam... wouldn't go see him to see for himself if there was signs of a 'spell' and then the Madison comment?But by this point, he knew Sam had been lying to him about Ruby. The trust thing is already coming into play, which is why I think he wouldn't listen. I think, if there hadn't been a case right then, Dean would have lost it. I don't think this is about youngest vs oldest. This is about their innate characters, which were formed from their childhood in how they were raised. Dean lost his chance at a life when his mother died, because, as John told him, he forced him to grow up too fast. Dean became John's weapon, his little soldier, a parent while he was a child. Sam was to be protected at all costs, thus giving Sam the ability to have a life, to learn that he could question things. Dean has always seen Sam as better then him (he's said so in the past), has wanted Sam to have that normal life, has always tried to protect him. He sees that Sam isn't Sam anymore, and he's scared. so we may have to agree to disagreeTrue, but I love the conversations as a result. Sorry, but I just cannot believe that anything good is going to come of the powers, and I can't sympathize with Sam about them. About the fact that he wants normal--yes, I can definitely sympathize, but not about the powers. I think he is just plain wrong for hiding what he is doing--for me, there is no excuse. His pride will be his downfall, I think. ETA: Didn't Anakin think he could handle his powers as well? And we all know how that turned out...
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Post by yor on Feb 8, 2009 6:43:42 GMT 1
Dang... You're makin' me work. First of all, of course Sam's powers aren't going to be used for good. This is TV and they're not setting it up to be that way... Kripke doesn't believe that's possible. There lies one of our points of differences, yes Sam was portrayed as the victim... But what did Dean let him get away with? (I need literal examples after 16 hours.) They're BOTH victims and have been from the get go. Yes, Sam's carried the burden of wondering if he caused all this until this season... Not light. I think it was at least somewhat spread out, not all in one season, repeatedly played out. Sure, Dean just got out of hell, but we didn't spend this much time on Sam grieving Jess... (not in the same league.... I know.) In my opinion, Dean has always been more of the victim, in that he was always more screwed up in my book... He obsessed over his brother and hunting because he had nothing else. A true tragedy. This is why it seems now to be going overboard. It is becoming absolutely unbelievable to add more to his torment, which is the plan. Hence I use the term Martyr. As for the youngest comments... please note... I said it was snarky... I wasn't being serious at all... Snarky! My point is, no where, did Dean EVER consider trying to SUPPORT Sam in using the powers for good. He was always scared of them, thus causing the doubt. He never once considered trying other options. Sam's NEVER going to feel comfortable or whole in his shoes unless he tries to get answers. It's a horrible feeling. I don't blame him. We all want answers. Dean's guilt is something that can't really be "handled". He must learn to deal with it. Sam has an "ability". There's a CHANCE it could be used for good. There's a chance is could go bad. We're supposed to ask him to sit there and ignore it? That isn't who I am. When people have an ability, I see it as a tragedy if they don't explore it. Some times it works and some times it fails, but you got nothing if you don't try. I can't live life like that. Call me an optimist, but even with possible evil powers. There's enough screwed up in their worlds. I hate that Sam is seen as selfish because he actually tries to DO something about their (or at least his own) circumstances rather than accept the fate. Who wants to live a life filled with "I wonder if? or I should have's?" What bothers me is Sam does things that he needs to do and people condemn him for it. He wants a normal life... bad son. He goes to college... don't come back. He wants to find dad... selfish SOB. Sam wants to play out Ruby's hand... Nope, not allowed. (last season) (Ok, I don't trust her either!) This is selfish? I call it healthy. How many students have I seen struggle to turn their backs on their families in order to take the direction they want in life. This makes them bad? Heck, just today I spent time with a girl who's parents refuse to help her with college, because she wants to be a teacher and that's an insult to them. A waste of college, they said. So she plans to do it on her own. And yes, they mean it. Ok, I am NOT saying Sam doesn't get his way... But often he has to invent the terms to do it. There are plenty of "superheros" who've survived the test of power. Who is to say, if Dean had just once said, "Ok, Sam, lets hear the WHOLE Story, let me see what you've learned, what you can do, etc. Let's see how we can use this, etc." MAYBE DEAN could have been the influence Ruby is being...
I'm WAY over personalizing on this one, but one of the things I worship about my family? They absolutely support me in EVERYTHING I have EVER wanted to do or try, succeed or fail. They expressed their doubts and don't always love it (Xmas?)... they told me I told you so when I failed, but they were still always there to help. Dean has ALWAYS been there for Sam, but he can't seem to do it this time... Ok, you could argue it's tough love, but again, I point to my family, they pointed out concerns but still backed me. It boils down to this... Human nature says, when no one else trusts you or supports you, why would you stay? Why wouldn't you hide when Dean has never ONCE offer the above to him? You love him. You can't overtly hurt him, so you do what you can, because he will never understand. And honestly, If it were me, I'd be ticked at Dean. Try backing him... It's a vicious circle. To me, it would have been a much better story had this been the direction. Now, we're going to see a predictable Dean vs Sam battle and Sam will "Have to go evil" because that's the stereotype that's been established and is being followed, despite numerous examples to the contrary. Dean will die the martyr and Sam will repent in guilt to go on alone or Sam will be killed by Dean as predicted and Dean will suffer all the more. How else would you have them come away from what they are setting up? Why not break the mold... An amazing story could have still been told with the brother battling to stay the course, will using the powers. Sam struggled to control and Dean struggled to accept, etc. Here's the nutshell... I wish Dean had supported Sam's trial enough to see him through to the first mis-step. Then he could be the influence and smack Sam down and have a leg and some evidence to stand on. That's what Sam needs. All the conjecture in the world means nothing to him, as is right. We all need to experience something to truly learn. Right now, Sam's done nothing wrong with his powers and that's why Sam can't accept this. Sigh... if only I ruled the world. Thanks for reading...
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Post by jensensbabe on Feb 8, 2009 19:05:16 GMT 1
Didn't Anakin think he could handle his powers as well? And we all know how that turned out...
Mick! That was hilarious!
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Post by yor on Feb 8, 2009 19:28:11 GMT 1
Good in the end? He saved the hero (Luke) and the ultimately the Republic? And was accepted back with the Jedi's... Hmmmm.... It was a good analogy, Mick! His families love turned him around... SO maybe Dean should try my route and help Sam channel the power for good? Displace Ruby's impact. ;D ;D Don't worry... I'm shutting up now. I'm done. I shall return to my hole.
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Post by jensensbabe on Feb 8, 2009 19:43:40 GMT 1
But couldn't Annikan have saved himself and his family a whole lotta trouble if he'd heeded the warnings that had been given to him? How many people had to die because Annikan turned to the Dark Side? I'm just sayin'....
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Post by yor on Feb 8, 2009 19:46:04 GMT 1
Like I said, if Anakin had had the right support and people listening to him in the first place, it might have been a different story...
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Post by yor on Feb 8, 2009 19:46:58 GMT 1
Wait I was stopping... There's no changing the Dean-army... I'll wage my war alone... like Sam.
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Post by jensensbabe on Feb 8, 2009 20:19:11 GMT 1
Oy with the poodles already! (GG reference! LOL!) Anakin HAD that support with Padme and Obi Wan, even Yoda tried to be understanding with the dreams Anakin was having that were troubling him so much. He decided to listen to Ruby...I mean Darth Sidious, more than his wife and mentor.
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Post by mick on Feb 8, 2009 22:28:55 GMT 1
J'babe--LOVE the button-thingy you posted!!!!! Yor--please, DO NOT shut-up!!!! I love these discussions!!!!!! I have no one to talk to about this show, so I need you guys! We're supposed to ask him to sit there and ignore it?Believe it or not, I get what you're saying. But I cannot help coming back to where these powers come from. Sam saw what embracing them did to Ava, Jake, etc. Dean saw it first hand as well. They both know the YED had plans for these kids. Of course Dean isn't going to support him. Between that and John's whole "your brother might go evil" thing, how else would he act? It's not a matter of trust, I don't think (well, it wasn't until Sam started sneaking around and lying to Dean ). Sam isn't thinking this through, either--all he sees is the end result, that Lilith is dead. He has one goal in mind. He's not trying to save the world, he's trying to end Lilith. He saw what revenge-mindedness did to his father, how it affected his life, and yet he is doing the same thing. He is leaping before looking, and he has that good-little demon whispering in his ear, saying the things he wants to hear instead of what he needs to hear, that even if he kills Lilith, there will be others to take her place. I don't think the reason that he's not listening to Dean is because Dean won't listen (that's what he's telling himself, to make it okay in his mind), it's because Dean won't tell him what he wants to hear. I wish Dean had supported Sam's trial enough to see him through to the first mis-stepDean has seen Sam use his powers and said nothing. He said nothing to when he was going to try again against Alistair--he protested a bit, but when it came right down to it, he couldn't stop it. What he does see is a Sam he doesn't know...just like he said. This Sam isn't his Sam--his Sam wouldn't lie, wouldn't sneak around, and certainly wouldn't throw back in his face what he had been asking to hear. There is just no way I can ever see Dean support Sam with these powers. Sam got these powers from the same demon that killed their mother. Sam's not asking Dean to support him leaving the hunting life, to support him going back to school, etc. This is something serious. And, don't forget, Dean was with tru evil for 40 years. He knows what it's like in the pit. I'm sure he's also scared that using these powers is going to fulfill whatever the YED's plans were, and Sam will end up in hell. There's no way Dean would want that to happen, especially knowing what it is like.
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Post by jensensbabe on Feb 8, 2009 23:11:12 GMT 1
I agree! Don't feel like you have to hold back, Yor! I love reading the debates!
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Post by yor on Feb 9, 2009 1:45:48 GMT 1
Ava and the others were only supported by YED... They didn't have a Dean. And my point is from the get go this was set up to be Sam could only go bad. Of COURSE John is going to say Sam might go evil. He never really knew his son and wasn't around long enough to know how to handle it. Imagine the story line if John and Dean had said, screw the YED, we're going to help Sam turn his own powers against him... That's all I'm arguing for. Sure, Sam's going behind Dean's back, but that's because Dean has made it clear that he's not going to support Sam in any way. I admit it. I would do no different than Sam. There is NO WAY I could sit back and not try... I only wish I had time... I'd write the story as I see it in my mind... But I'm really going to shut up. It's a great discussion, but I'm too tired.
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