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Post by Silwyna on May 13, 2010 20:01:26 GMT 1
***The entire season has been leading up to this showdown between good and evil. With the Apocalypse looming, Sam and Dean realize they are out of options and make heart-breaking decisions that will change their lives forever. A beloved character is killed.***
Steve Boyum directed the episode with teleplay by Eric Kripke and story by Eric Gewitz.
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Post by mick on May 14, 2010 3:40:43 GMT 1
Bwahahahahah!!! Seriously-- this was the 5 year plan??? Holy frakking cow! You know, at the beginning, I thought I had on the wrong channel or that my cable company got the signals messed up. I have to admit to thinking that we were going to lose the Impala, what with all the focus on it. So, Sam could have said no, but still said yes?? Yep, stupidest plan EVER!!! Not surprised that Lucifer knew everything--Death gave over that ring way too easily. I would have liked to have seen Crowley be the big guy, but not surprised if he double-crossed everyone. So, Chuck, huh? I wonder why the amulet never went hot in his presence? Bobby irritated me again. He got all upset that the plan didn't work, telling Dean it was over. How about admitting that you had something to do with that, what with his speech to Dean and all. Heck, he supported the plan. And what about his deal with Crowley? That seems to have been forgotten, too. Way to retcon all of season 4...Dean did nothing. It wasn't even him who got through to Sam, it was the car. Where was the big showdown? The show I started watching was about Sam and Dean--the myth-arc that was set up last season snd carrid on through this one was about Sam and Dean. So why was the battle between Sam and Adam (well, if you can call that a battle) Why was Dean even saved from hell? They could have kept him there, then Sam could have joined him, and they could have ruled together!!! Seriously, what was the point of last season? I couldn't even get emotional during the scenes I think I was suppose to get emotional in. The scene between Sam and Dean in the car felt like a replay of the season 3 finale--same song, different verse. In fact, alot of this episode reminded me of the season 3 finale, only it was Sam saying his goodbyes instead of Dean. I was really hoping for something new. Cas exploding was gross. Dean's face when he was all beat up was hard to look at, too. At least Dean seemed to have kept his promise. So, is that Sam? Lucifer? Michael (who somehow for some reason was able to switch bodies in the pit)? Again, this is really how Kripke was going to end it? I laughed through most of it. I think the only way it could have been better for me was if I had "copious amounts of alcohol." ETA: I also had a problem with the Cas/Dean scene in the end. Cas told Dean this is what he wanted. Um, Dean was willing a few episodes back to do what the angels wanted him to do, and Cas beat him up for it. He would have ensured the whole paradise thing he didn't want to end Lucifer. Now he tells Dean this is what he asked for? Oy.
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Post by yor on May 14, 2010 11:56:21 GMT 1
lol! I KNEW you were going to HATE it!
I can't tell a lie. I haven't watched the whole thing yet. I was out. SO before I can comment, I need to watch the whole thing.
However, I will say, I did keep wondering how the episode was different from the one Kripke intended for the true finale. Now that there is a season six, I BET he changed it.
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Post by mick on May 14, 2010 12:52:24 GMT 1
I will say, I did keep wondering how the episode was different from the one Kripke intended for the true finale. Now that there is a season six, I BET he changed it.Personally, I don't think much was changed. I thought I had read somewhere that Kripke was going to play out his 5 year plan the way he wanted it to, and I think it did. I think this was always the plan for Sam, right from the very first episode. Didn't he say somewhere in one of the earlier seasons about how he knew what the very last scene would look like? I think this is it. What frustrates me is the Dean storyline (I know, big surprise ). The writers have admitted that originally, Dean was suppose to basically be a 2-dimensional sidekick, that this was Sam's story, but that when they saw what JA brought to the character, that changed their minds. Then we have season 4, where Kripke tells JA that, because of his hard work (or something like that--I can't remember how JA put it), Dean was going to be part of the myth-arc. Then, I think as the end got near, it went right back to the original plan, and Dean went right back to nothing more than Sam's brother who basically didn't do anything but get his butt kicked (again). If they had kept it Sam's story like it was originally was suppose to have been, I would have been fine, because then I wouldn't have gotten invested in Dean's story. But they didn't. They gave me an entire season of setting up Dean's role, and then he's basically told by Death, by Michael, that he is nothing--he doesn't matter to the story at all. And he really didn't. As a viewer, I feel cheated. I mean, what was the point of season 4, other than to set Lucifer free? They set it all up, then they didn't follow through. I thought these guys were suppose to be heroes. The writers didn't give Dean anything heroic to do. Their other hero is Lucifer--by choice! He chose to say "yes," even after they knew that Lucifer was hip to their plan. Why didn't he get his tail out of their and regroup? If it wasn't for the Impala, Lucifer would have killed Dean and destroyed the world...and Sam gave him that power--willingly. Sometimes I think these writers sit there and go, "Ooh, wouldn't this be cool," without thinking about the ramifications, about how they are going to handle what they set up later on. I'm tripping in all the holes.
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Post by Silwyna on May 14, 2010 15:59:13 GMT 1
I LOVED this! Wow, what an episode!!! (Mick, I'm sorry you're so frustrated about it!!! *hugs*) I nearly died when Lucifer killed Bobby!!!! I knew one "beloved character" would die. Then Castiel exploded (gross!) and I thought Bobby would be safe! Argh!!! Good thing Castiel came back with all his powers *whew* There are still two episodes left this season, right? This wasn't the finale? Or was it? I'm so terribly informed at the moment. Argh! Mick, about Dean not doing anything: He did bring the Impala to the cemetary. That took a lot of courage, knowing what was going to happen there. And I don't think the Impala alone would have helped Sam in regaining control - I think it was both the car and Dean (plus the million memories they shared) that made it happen. Whatever happens next, I'm glad Bobby is still with us
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Post by mick on May 14, 2010 19:29:50 GMT 1
There are still two episodes left this season, right?
Sorry...this one was the finale.
He did bring the Impala to the cemetary. That took a lot of courage
True, he did, because he didn't want Sam to die alone (actually, the scene where he said that to Bobby and Cas was the only one that got to me). But it was just typical Dean--I mean, this is the guy who went into to talk to Death all alone. I still want to know what season 4 and half of this one was all about. Why build up this epic battle--with your two leads being the vessels--if there is no epic battle, and one of the leads basically isn't necessary (other than to give his brother a few minutes of control).
Like I said, if they had never brought Dean into the myth-arc, if they had kept it status-quo, it would have been different. But Kripke and the writers chose to give him a part in it--Michael's supposedly one true vessel--and then said, "oops" and gave it to a third brother we never even heard of until last season, and all of a sudden Dean wasn't needed anymore (other than to be, once again, a punching bag). I'm really starting to wonder if there really was any plan at all, other than what happened with Sam, because I still think that was suppose to be Sam's story all along. I don't think they veered much from that (but, I could be way off base, too, and it's not like my opinion about it really matters to the writers).
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Post by moira4eku on May 15, 2010 1:00:58 GMT 1
I thought that Dean interrupting Lucifer and Michael was pivotal to the story. Sam was able to take control when Lucifer saw that family is everything while seeing the history of Dean and Sam in the Impala. If Dean hadn't been there then you would not have had the juxtaposition of the toy soldier and Dean being pummeled. Don't forget that Lucifer would have never been let loose if Dean hadn't broken the first seal.
I don't think Chuck was God throughout the series, I think that perhaps he just recently became the vessel of God (look how happy and serene he seemed. He knew that everything was going to turn out ok). Cas did say that the amulet didn't work (I think that Chuck was Chuck at that time anyway)/
I too, wanted to smack Bobby and Cas when they gave up and Dean was bound and determine to do something. If he hadn't then the world would have burned.
I would have been disappointed if Dean had been Micheal's vessel because I always wanted him to say "no" and show everyone that he does have free will and screw destiny.
I wanted to just cry at the end when we saw that Dean was still terribly depressed (how much time had passed by that scene at the dinner table?) about Sam, and then we see Sam (and I truly believe that it was Sam, that he was saved by God or perhaps Cas) outside the house looking in knowing that perhaps he should let Dean have his chance at "normal". He does need to let Dean know that he is alive before he does something stupid, though.
Must say, I'm very curious to see how Season 6 is going to play out. I'm hoping for more one shot episodes with some comedy and delving into the brother's relationship.
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Post by yor on May 15, 2010 2:18:56 GMT 1
Ok, SO... let me START by saying
I AM AN IDIOT!!!!!!!!!
when I said I hadn't watched the whole thing, I THOUGHT I had fast forwarded through it all, so I had SEEN everything. The only thing I hadn't (THOUGHT) I watched was the mirror conversation between Sam and Lucy.
IMAGINE MY SURPRISE!!! To discover SEVENTH HOUR today, in class from a student, after not being able to sleep due to the whirlwind of emotions from the show so late in the evening, being kinda grouchy all day because of it...
I THOUGHT it ENDED with DEAN at the SIDE of the CAR! I MISSED THE ACTUAL ENDING! I THOUGHT BOBBY AND CAS WERE STILL DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
*head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack**head smack*
I was crying and depressed, not realizing that Bobby and Cas come back and Dean goes to Lisa and BEST OF ALL, SAMMY IS OUT and giving Sam over to a normal life!!!!!!!! (one might assume!) All might finally be at peace!!!
Now I am crying again!
Mick, at first I was beginning to come around to your point of view, but now, I can't. Dean was just as heroic. They didn't fight they way everyone assumed. He didn't play the angels game. (as a baby sister controlled by older sibs) He trusted his baby brother to do it and then helped him ultimately do something he was against.
Had Dean not been there, it would have failed. Sam would have failed.
It was beautiful. Dean's journey was about realizing he had to let go. It wasn't all on his shoulders... It wasn't all on him.
GASP.
I want to watch over and over again...
I LOVE THOSE MONTAGES WITH THE MUSIC!!!!!
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Post by mick on May 15, 2010 2:26:22 GMT 1
I thought that Dean interrupting Lucifer and Michael was pivotal to the storyOkay, I will concede to this point. I personally don't like the way it was handled, though. All of it could have been done without making Dean part of the myth-arc, though, even the saying yes/no stuff. I read another post where the person said that they would have rathered Sam go evil at the end of season 3 to save Dean. Looking at everything that has happened--how all of season 4 and introducing Dean the mythology just disappeared--I think I agree. Dean still could have been Dean, and I wouldn't have gotten invested in his role as something other than Sam's brother. As for Sam being Sam--I don't know that it really is Sam. I mean, before he showed up, the lights flickered and all, which, in this show, usually means an angel or demon is there (but, then again, they could just ignore that fact, too). I don't think Chuck was God throughout the series, I think that perhaps he just recently became the vessel of GodI don't know if this is the case, but I'm going to go with it. Don't forget that Lucifer would have never been let loose if Dean hadn't broken the first seal. Actually, Dean made it possible for Lucifer to break free. Sam breaking the last seal is what actually set him free, which was part of Sam's reasoning for saying "yes." I will say that had Dean not broken the first seal, it wouldn't have been possible, but then if Sam had listened to his family and not a demon, it wouldn't have happened, either.
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Post by yor on May 15, 2010 2:37:12 GMT 1
true if Dean hadn't made the deal to bring Sam back, what might have happened? Then if you believe Lucy, none of this was avoidable.
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Post by mick on May 15, 2010 3:43:34 GMT 1
Yor, I'm sorry, but I had to LOL at your headsmack.
Okay, so I'll give that Dean was still a hero--of sorts. He did show up to a fight with the two most powerful archangels without any regard to what was going to happen to him, but for me, that's Dean. That's totally in character. However, that is all he did. Other than that, he told Sam he was there and proceeded to get his butt kicked. They didn't need to make him part of the myth-arc for him to do what he did.
true if Dean hadn't made the deal to bring Sam back, what might have happened? Then if you believe Lucy, none of this was avoidable.
I'm not questioning the deal. But I'm starting to think like the other post I read--they could have had Sam make a deal with the devil to keep Dean out of hell. Then I wouldn't have watched all of season 4 and half of season 5, believing (and essentially being told) that Dean had more to do with the story than being Sam's brother, and then be told that, um, yeah, his role was as Sam's brother.
I know I'm in the minority here--I get the whole "love saved the world," but I had higher expectations based on what I've watched and what the writers set up.
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Post by yor on May 15, 2010 4:04:03 GMT 1
it's alright... Like I said, you were close to having me convinced as well. You are me with BSG. (and that rhymes!)
And imagine watching the episode with out the ending... HELLO BOBBY DEAD~!!!!!!
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Post by mick on May 15, 2010 4:42:34 GMT 1
HELLO BOBBY DEADWell, actually....as awful as this is to say, I would have been okay with it. All the pre-stuff I read about this one was that was going to be a significant death. At the beginning, I thought it would be the Impala. When Cas exploded, I thought that was it. Then Bobby died, and all I could think was that the writers have guts. But then they were brought back. Plus, Bobby was really starting to grate on my nerves, and really got me when he told Dean to give up (after convincing him to go along with the plan). You are me with BSG.You know, I've been thinking about the BSG finale this week (I have read other comments comparing SPN's finale to BSG's). Starbuck disappearing was all kinds of stupid (but, hey, Chuck did the same thing ), Bill leaving Lee was just wrong, but I thought then and still do that the twist that what's her name was really the Eve-fossil (sorry, I can't for the life of me remember Sharon's baby's name or what the Eve fossil is called ;D) was kind of neat. And I do think that it was an interesting take on technology (because I do believe some of that). I found SPN's finale boring and a let down to what the writers themselves built up. There were way too many plot-holes. I think what I'm going to have to do with season 6 is just watch without any expectations (or trust in the writers) and just not remember what happened in previous episodes (or seasons). Now that I think about it, I guess I can see (maybe) what you mean about me with this show. I was invested in Dean's character and his role in all of this--I wanted his role to be more than being Sam's brother, to have something outside of his brother--and I got all excited during season 4 when it seemed like it would be that way. Heck, I saw an interview with JA at the beginning of season 4 where it seemed like he felt the same way--that he wasn't a part of the myth-arc other than being Sam's brother, but then Kripke told him he would be--and that made me more excited for the character. Then he's totally dropped from the myth-arc. His role is reduced to what it was originally (which is fine, but if that is the case, don't tell me it's going to be different to begin with). But, hey, now I know just to watch and enjoy the pretty, and maybe once in a while I'll be surprised. ETA: I just read another post and realized what the person said is what I was trying to say but not doing a god job of it--Dean driving into the cemetery like that was brave, but he really wasn't a hero unto himself. He was the instigator for Sam's heroism (for lack of a better word). He still didn't do anything and didn't have a real part in the story other than to get Sam control for a few seconds so he could throw himself into the hole. His role was completely diminished in the myth-arc.
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Post by yor on May 15, 2010 14:08:02 GMT 1
As I once again woke up at 6am on a Saturday morning, but refused to get out of bed... I contemplated SPN.
I came to this conclusion. The show was NEVER really about the myth-arc to me. The myth-arc was just the set up for the CHARACTIERS to me. I think that's why I don't have the issues and continuity problems. This explains to me why you are so bothered. It makes complete sense to me that you are bothered.
To me this is about the characters and as I lay in bed, I am more and more in love with what has happened.
Dean took the lead in the show because that's what Dean always did. He saved his family and sacrificed EVERYTHING about himself for them. HE was going to be the savior and again sacrifice it all... everything was leading up to that. Dean would be the selfless hero as he always had been.
Dean is the hero, because he will carry on. If Dean had not been Dean, if he hadn't done everything he had, (in other words, every step was crucial) we wouldn't have gotten to where we are.
Now we are still left with Dean's character to grow and develop... Can he continue to move on and grow? Can he find life on his own terms? Finally not having been the selfless one? Having had someone ELSE be selfless for HIM???
The myth-arc or story line, is just to move the characters... And to me, Dean has now grown the most and been given the most. Sam changed and went back to Sam... Dean now gets the CHANCE to grow and improve to someone totally stronger.
What's even nicer? I'm with Silke... I'm glad the storyline is done, as now, my mind is racing with ideas... Is Sam good or evil? Will Dean be happy or struggle? Hunt or move on? How will they meet up, as we know they eventually must? What will that be like? Will we see Cas again?
Good positive, wonderful dreamy, fic inspiring thoughts... NOW time to write?
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Post by yor on May 15, 2010 14:09:31 GMT 1
PS. Mick, I would LOVE to see (truly) what you would have rather seen for a ending...
Could you write it? Or even outline it?
Maybe we ALL need to force ourselves to take a few minutes a day away from our stresses and force ourselves to try something for ourselves? A writing challenge?
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