yor
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Post by yor on Oct 16, 2008 1:53:53 GMT 1
My thoughts too Silke... I don't believe Dean intended to share the demon blood with Sam. Having watched the scene *cough* a few times... It seemed to me they had moved on and Sam was digesting all he had learned. Damn... I supposed I'll have to go watch again? (I'm trying to get packed and organized tonight. I have to leave town WAY early Friday morning and have the kids tomorrow night. I need to have everything ready to go so I can watch when I get home and head straight to bed! *wink* )
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Post by Silwyna on May 22, 2009 15:53:14 GMT 1
I'm watching this episode again and there is this moment ...
Sam is telling Dean that he saved so many people because using his mind instead of the knife and that he won't let his powers go too far. Dean responds with "slippery slope, brother" and there's this look in his eyes! This got me thinking ... when he agreed to start torturing souls in hell, maybe he told himself the same: That he won't let it go too far, that he'll pretend to torture them, but not hurt them too much. Only once he started, he couldn't stop himself, he even started enjoying it; he said so later (I can't remember which episode). Maybe that's why he's so vehemently against Sam using his powers. He's already been there, telling himself he would stop and then he never noticed when he started becoming so much like Alistair. And that's what he's afraid will happen to Sam; that he'll never notice how far he can go before he has to stop until it's too late.
Does that make sense?
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mick
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Post by mick on May 22, 2009 18:34:24 GMT 1
It makes absolutely perfect sense. If this is the case (and it sounds really good), then these two really need to take a course on communication so they can get these points across to each other.
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yor
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Post by yor on May 23, 2009 3:28:38 GMT 1
Yes, it makes sense, but at the same time, just because I do something, doesn't mean someone else will do the same. Everybody is different and has the ability to react differently. (This is the little sister talking, who had the big sister who would explain why I should do it her way... even though I still didn't want to and then she'd get mad! NOW, I can justify it.)
To assume Dean could make Sam do something the way he wanted him to simply because he said so was poor logic. It certainly might have helped if they had communicated better, but even then, Sam has the right to make his own choices. Even had Dean told his side of things, it would have merely given Sam more knowledge to make his own decision. Case in point, Sam still kept to his plan after finding out Dean's story. He knew the slippery slope.
I believe you have to allow for growth and learning. Everyone processes information and uses it when and how they need to. They interpret the facts and details of one situation to their own.
The plain fact in my book, no matter how frustrating it may be, to me or Dean, we HAVE to let people learn their own lessons and make their own mistakes. The hardest thing a parent can do is stand back and let kids make mistakes or fall and yet, as a parent, they HAVE to. Doesn't a child have to touch the flame of a candle once to learn it's hot. No body likes to risk the burn, but it has to happen. How many times does a plate come and the waitress tells us it's hot, but we touch it anyway?
We had to let Sam go this course as much as we didn't like it. No matter what, he believed in his mind, he was doing what was right for him. He was going to stop Lillith and avenge Dean. he was going to take the evil done to him and use it for good. He saved some humans along the way, killed demons and made his choices.
And then you let them accept the consequences of their actions.
And Sam was prepared to do so. He said as much.
I respect him for it.
I hope this next part comes out right...
I hope in season 5 we get more information on Dean's time in hell... The more I think about it, the more I don't get why the torture was fundamentally so hard for him. I need more info on who he was torturing, etc. How did he cope then, etc? For example, if it were me, I'd try and remind myself how many demons were there... were they humans who had say, molested children and deserved torture (IMO)? Dean's personality strikes me as someone who could get behind that! These people were in hell for a reason? Or are we to believe a lot of innocent people go to hell?
Does any of this make sense? This has nagged at me for some time. The Dean I'd come to know... but perhaps he was too defeated by then? Is that it? By then he couldn't summon those kinds of thoughts?
I dunno... that's why I want more info...
I'm rambling again tonight.
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Post by Silwyna on May 23, 2009 9:57:03 GMT 1
You're right of course. What I said wasn't supposed to make Dean's decicision more right, it's just an explanation - to me anyway - for why he never, not once, even considered using Sam's powers to kill Lillith.
I hope in season 5 we get more information on Dean's time in hell... The more I think about it, the more I don't get why the torture was fundamentally so hard for him. I need more info on who he was torturing, etc. How did he cope then, etc? For example, if it were me, I'd try and remind myself how many demons were there... were they humans who had say, molested children and deserved torture (IMO)? Dean's personality strikes me as someone who could get behind that! These people were in hell for a reason? Or are we to believe a lot of innocent people go to hell?
Yes, but he was in hell and didn't deserve to. He has no knowledge how many other people ended up there who are basically innocent as well (granted, probably not that many, but if even just one person were innocent and Dean tortured him/her, I think that knowledge would get to him). I can also imagine that Alistair deliberately "gave" him souls who weren't that guilty that they deserved the torture Dean inflicted on them.
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mick
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Post by mick on May 23, 2009 14:26:05 GMT 1
The hardest thing a parent can do is stand back and let kids make mistakes or fall and yet, as a parent, they HAVE toSo true, and I think this is why Dean had such a difficult time with the powers thing. I think that, while Sam loves Dean as a brother (which is exactly what they are), because of how John raised Dean to always put Sam first, Dean loves Sam more as a parent, which I think is part of the problem with their relationship, anyways. While, yes, as a parent, you have to step back and let your child make their own mistakes, it's also one of the hardest things to do, to have to watch your child do something that you know may hurt them. It literally breaks your heart. And, as a parent, you try to talk and talk to get your child to see it, but, inevitably, they will make their own choice (you just pray it's the correct one). Dean tried and tried with Sam, but Sam did make his own choice at the end. But, as a parent, you can't not try to talk them out of the poor choice, which is what Dean did. If he hadn't tried to get Sam to stop, I would have cried foul, because for Dean, his love for Sam is more of a parent's. Sam resents it at times, which makes sense, because not only would a sibling resent being told what to do by another sibling, children will resent their parents for it, too. As a parent and a sister (and a sister who didn't have to raise my younger ones ), though, I can say it's harder when it's your child than when it's your sibling, and I think that's where Dean is at--as more of a parent. It's not right, because he's not technically Sam's parent, but he raised him, so the feelings are there. Does that make sense? Personally, I don't think they gave the hell story justice. We got the angst, but I think they could have done more with it. I still think Dean functioned fairly well for someone who was subjected to 30 years of the most unimaginable torture, and then for 10 years forced to do something that goes explicitly against his personality. He's always been about saving people, and then to have to turn around and hurt them? I also wonder about the souls Alistair gave him (I've always wondered if Bela was one of them). We know that people who wouldn't otherwise go to hell ended up there because of making a deal. I think that would be more torture for Dean, to know that he hurt someone who was undeserving of hell as far as their soul went (does that make sense--I mean someone who wouldn't have ended up there without a deal) as opposed to, as Yor said, a murderer or molestor. I've always thought it would be interesting for him to run into a demon who became one because of Dean's torture. Also, what about the demons who Sam sent back while Dean was still "on the rack," before he could actually kill the demon? Okay, done rambling...
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Post by Silwyna on May 23, 2009 14:59:51 GMT 1
I've always wondered if Bela was one of themI think he would have enjoyed that
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Post by mick on May 23, 2009 15:05:39 GMT 1
I think he would have enjoyed that I think I would have enjoyed it!
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Post by Silwyna on May 23, 2009 15:39:25 GMT 1
LOL
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yor
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Post by yor on May 23, 2009 19:10:27 GMT 1
I missed that point, Silke... about Dean not wanting to use Sam's powers to seek revenge on Lilith. I wasn't thinking about it from that stand point. I was merely thinking about it from "Dean doesn't want Sam to use the powers AT ALL."
And yeah, Mick, you said it better than I... They didn't give the hell story justice. Good thinking, maybe Alastair did give him the innocents... It would make the most sense.
That's why I NEED to know more!!!!!
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