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Post by Silwyna on May 6, 2010 21:20:10 GMT 1
***Crowley tells Bobby he will give him the location of Death (guest star Julian Richings), the fourth horseman, in exchange for his soul. Knowing Sam and Dean need that fourth ring to stop the Apocalypse, Bobby reluctantly agrees. Sam and Dean confront Pestilence (guest star Matt Frewer), but he unleashes a deadly virus upon them, so Castiel must intervene on their behalf. Dean has a meeting with Death to discuss Lucifer, and an unholy alliance is formed at a very high price for Dean.***
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yor
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Post by yor on May 7, 2010 3:02:48 GMT 1
I may give up sam and become devoted only to Bobby...
ok, not, but I could....
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mick
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Post by mick on May 7, 2010 3:18:35 GMT 1
UGH!!!!!!!!!! I am SO ready for this apocalypse to be over!!!! I used to adore Bobby--but "hard on Sam?" Really? I can't recall Bobby ever being hard on Sam (John, yes--but then he was hard on both his boys) but not Bobby. Also, I don't see it as Dean being able to overcome Michael (or whatever it was Cas said). He said "no;" it wasn't like Michael was in his body or anything. So, we spent a whole episode with everyone trying to convince Dean that saying "yes" was wrong, but this plan is so much better? How many times did Dean get grief about his deal, but Bobby goes and makes one? I feel like I have whiplash from one episode to the next! I can't tell you how many times I rolled my eyes through this one. The characters are changing too quickly. I did enjoy Matt Frewer, and the actor playing Death was creepy--good casting! I had this thought when Crowley first came on the scene that he was really the big man from upstairs. After these last couple of episodes, I don't think that's possible anymore, but I still think it would have been cool if he was.
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yor
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Post by yor on May 8, 2010 18:39:07 GMT 1
What other choices do they have? *shrugging shoulders?*
Bobby's choice was utterly different for me. He has been down all season... he's contemplated his own end. He's frustrated by his legs... AND he had outs. They are at desperation points.
I'm sensing some BSG frustration for you... I'm not feeling it. Maybe because my boy is finally getting some love. Maybe because I'm not watching close enough? Maybe I learned my lesson from BSG? I dunno, but I do feel for you, Mick.
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Post by mick on May 9, 2010 16:04:47 GMT 1
What other choices do they have?Here's the problem I have--I feel like the writers have forgotten their own show. I've never felt a lack of love for Sam from the writers. I've always felt they go in waves...they love Dean, then Sam, then back to Dean, then back to Sam. A few episodes ago, I watched as Bobby, Cas, and Sam all told Dean what a stupid decision it was to say "yes" without ever telling why, and at the end of that episode, we got the whole "free will" thing. I watched as Dean felt bad for locking Sam up in the panic room, acted like it was horrible, when he did it because Sam was an addict. I watched as he once again apologized for saying the things he said to Sam. I get the Sam redemption thing--this is his way to atone for breaking the last seal. The thing is, I don't have a problem with that. For me, I have a problem with the fact that he has never apologized for the hurt he inflicted on the people he loves--for lying to his brother, calling him weak, choking him. Him saying "yes" doesn't make up for that for me. And what about the demon blood? Cas said that he would have to drink gallons of it. Where is he going to get it? What about his addiction? And Dean doesn't have a problem with that? As someone pointed out on another board I was reading--both Bobby and John were able to overcome the demons that were possessing them when they were in the process of or about to kill Dean. This isn't some low level demon here--this is Lucifer. What happens to Sam if they get Lucifer out? We saw what happened to Raphael's host. Yes, Bobby's speech frustrated me--it was like I, as a viewer, was suddenly supposed to feel sorry for how Sam has been mistreated. I have never seen them be "hard" on Sam--in my opinion, they're not hard enough. I've seen Bobby lay into Dean (I'm thinking of the end of the fourth season), and in the beginning of this season, he was gentle with Sam. Sam hit him in the face with a shot gun! And then he goes into how Sam saved those 10 people--both boys do this, time and time again. Dean said it all the way back in season one, it was about "saving people." Why is it okay for Sam to say "yes" when a few episodes ago it was so awful for Dean to say "yes?" I feel like they are trying to blame everything on the demon blood, and that's not all of it. For me, both boys are heroes. I do think Sam's plan is stupid...what happens if he can't control Lucifer? None of the characters have brought that up, either. I feel like the writers aren't thinking things through when they put this stuff down. They are at desperation pointsBut this has been the case since the show started. John was desperate to save Dean...Dean was desperate to save Sam...Sam tried to make deals when Dean was in hell...they've all been there. Bobby is not a special case for me just because of his legs. I get that, in his line of work, it would be devastating, but he hasn't been useless. Quite honestly, I have lost some of my Bobby-love this season. I'm sensing some BSG frustration for youI'm not sure what this means, but how I feel has nothing to do with BSG (heck, I can't even remember what about that show really frustrated me, other than Starbuck! ). It has to do with what I have seen in the past--the things that have been stated in the show and things that have happened that seem to have suddenly been forgotten. I do feel for you, Mick.Thanks, but I'm fine. I know this is just a show, and I'm not going to stop watching it or anything. I just want some consistency in the writing, and right now I don't see it. It seems like the storylines that were set-up in season four are gone, as are the actions of the characters. But as a viewer, I haven't forgotten them. This is the main reason I'm ready for the apocalypse story to be over and for the writers to move on to something else with the boys. **If this came across as a Sam vs Dean thing, it wasn't meant to. I've just been very frustrated at how the writers have portrayed Sam's actions since last season and how those around him have dealt with it.**
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Post by yor on May 9, 2010 18:31:37 GMT 1
I totally see Dean as having dealt with Sam's actions. I thought they've brilliantly dealt with his struggles back and forth to place his trust back in Sam...
You want Sam to say "I'm sorry." I guess I assume he has through his ways and actions, because the words to me would be so pathetic. (I could have sworn he had, but then again, I'll trust you.) Dean needs to say sorry. It's in his character. He needs his family's forgiveness. I bet he's been apologizing to John his whole life. And I'll bet Sam didn't or if he did, he didn't mean it. He's more stubborn.
Whether it's his "darkside" or in my opinion, strength, Sam doesn't need it in the same way. He apologizes through his actions, maybe words and moves on. He's not the same Sam he once was. He hasn't been for some time. He's struggling to get back there, but that's a tough door to reopen.
I think we've seen Dean heal but I don't think we've really seen Sam heal yet. He can't say anything. It's too overwhelming. Maybe after it's all over...
As for BSG frustration, that is MINE. I've not watched an episode since the end because I was so ticked off and frustrated... I couldn't handle that last season at ALL. It was WRONG to me. I'm thinking you're feeling that way about da' boys. (And yes, I still watched BSG to the end.)
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Post by mick on May 9, 2010 19:49:20 GMT 1
I totally see Dean as having dealt with Sam's actions. I thought they've brilliantly dealt with his struggles back and forth to place his trust back in Sam
Oh, I agree that Dean has dealt with it. It's more my problem--I wanted Dean to finally get angry and hurt enough to not let it go so easily..I wanted him to say the words, to tell Sam exactly how he hurt him, because I don't know that Sam really gets it (well, I think he finally understood more after the heaven episode, but up until that point, he was apologizing about breaking the last seal and not about how he hurt his brother--which is a moot point that I need to let go because I think the writers have forgotten all about it).
I think we've seen Dean heal but I don't think we've really seen Sam heal yet
I don't think either boy has healed, but I don't expect the writers to deal too much with it. Look at how they handled Dean being in hell. Dean tends to push all the hurt way down inside...I don't think he's dealt, I think he's realized he doesn't have the time to deal with it.
I'm thinking you're feeling that way about da' boys
No, I'm not frustrated with the boys, I'm frustrated with the way the writers are writing them, and how they are overlooking things that they wrote in previous episodes or changing stuff all together. And, honestly, to me, both JA and JP have seemed "off" somehow with these last couple of episodes. I don't know what it is...nothing I can specifically put my finger on, more just the way they came across on the screen to me. I think that might be adding to it a little.
As for BSG, I can hardly remember what happened in the last season, other than them finding Earth! ;D
ETA: I started thinking about BSG in comparison to SPN. I think I'm not getting my thoughts across clearly. With BSG, I never had a problem with what was written--I always felt that the writers wrote as if the audience was intelligent. My problem with the show was who they wrote for. With SPN, I am having a problem with what the writers are actually writing. I feel like they don't think that I am an intelligent viewer--that I won't remember what has come before. What they are writing, to me, isn't logical--it doesn't make sense or gel with previous episodes.
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Post by yor on May 11, 2010 2:57:16 GMT 1
Yep, I don't think you're ever going to get your Sam scene. It's not in Sam. Never has been. He doesn't need Dean in the same ways. In my recent stays at home, I was rewatching the older shows... Sam never apologized for his actions and who he was with Dean. He flat out told Dean he had to accept who he was in Shadows (?)... I suppose that's Sam's selfish / confidence. Depending on how you see it. It's pointless, been done, won't change... It would be like me trying to explain things for the umpteenth time to my siblings... It isn't worth it. They still love me. I love them. We argue, we disagree, we don't really understand, but we move on. (Silke's seen it. ) I'm not having the continuity problems you are.. and I had huge issues with BSG. Very funny. We see our shows differently. That's why we love them. I know I am VERY interested to see what happens Thursday night. AND I sense people are frustrated or overwhelmed as look how little discussion is going on here...
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Post by mick on May 11, 2010 13:05:58 GMT 1
AND I sense people are frustrated or overwhelmed as look how little discussion is going on here...
From the one other board I read, the answer to this would be a resounding "yes."
This plan isn't logical at all. The show never told me why Dean saying "yes" was so bad, but the writers want me to believe that this is the better plan? Sam has to drink huge amounts of demon blood. What happens to him once he's in Lucifer? Won't Lucifer know something is up? Will he not be able to read Sam's mind? And, let's say that Sam does succeed. What happens then? Is he in hell, body and soul, for all eternity? Can physical bodies go to hell? Because, for me, that might be a deal breaker. They did the hell thing--not too well, in my opinion. I surely have no desire to see how they deal with Sam and hell. Will we get episodes of them trying to rescue him? Scenes of him saying how his experience was so much worse? Scenes of Dean trying to be supportive and compassionate, which Sam never really was? Or, let's say that he somehow manages to escape--we saw what happened to the vessels of archangels. This is Lucifer--will Sam be a huge mess? At least Michael promised Dean he would return him to normal (and we know he can do that because he did it with John). I seriously doubt Lucifer is going to be so accommodating. And now Lucifer will be in his rightful meat-suit. If Dean had said "yes," maybe Michael would have been able to defeat Lucifer in a weaker state. And what happens if Sam can't control him--it's hell on Earth. These are the things the characters should be discussing, not about what a good heart Sam has and how he's had it so rough. This is why I can't get behind this story--I find myself just wanting it to be over because it's so illogical. I know this show isn't factual, but I expect some sort of--something--to make sense. And this in no way makes any sense, other than to tell me, as a viewer, what a huge hero Sam is and what a huge sacrifice it is he's making, but yet it was so utterly horrible for Dean to make that same sacrifice a few episodes ago. And, the thing is, these are questions that popped up in my mind as soon as this plan was mentioned. They're not difficult--they didn't require alot of thought, which is why I feel like the writers don't see us as intelligent. I would love to know if these questions came up in the writers room.
I'm hoping with all my heart that something happens to end this without some sort of cliff hanger with Sam in hell and Dean trying to get him out--been there, done that. At this point, I don't really care which brother ends up being the hero and makes the biggest sacrifice. Just get it over with. I would really like to see the big guy show up at the very end, tell the boys that since they've made such a huge sacrifice that he decided to step in, and end this, with both boys alive, only with themself inside,, and on Earth. Either that, or there is more to Death's plan that he told Dean that Dean's not sharing--we didn't hear any of it, anyways--but more than what he tells the rest of the group, that makes this all work out with the same results--both boys on Earth, not possessed by anything, and relatively intact physically and psychologically.
Sam never apologized for his actions and who he was with Dean
You're right, and I don't think he should have to apologize for who he is. I do think he should have to apologize for what he's done to his brother, and I don't think this ultimate sacrifice is that. I don't care if it's not in Sam--I want to see character growth, and for me, that would be character growth for Sam. For him to apologize, though, would be him admitting to himself that he did something wrong to his brother, and to me, it always seem they try to whitewash Sam's actions and blame them on something or someone else--his addiction, Ruby, his dad controlling him, Dean being a bossy big brother, the demon blood. And it makes Dean look like a doormat to never say how he feels. And you're right, I will never get it, which is something else the writers, to me, have overlooked, as it would show that the characters have changed.
For the first time ever, I want the finale to be here. Not because I'm excited about what will happen, but because I just want it to be over.
Thanks for the discussion, though. No one I know watched this show--the only part the hubby saw was Death's car--and, as stupid as it is, I've gotten so frustrated with the show that I need to get it out, and you guys let me. So, thank you for that.{{hugs}}
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Post by yor on May 12, 2010 0:53:40 GMT 1
always...
I'm not against the Sam growth btw... I meant to say I just don't think he's DONE it yet. I still hold out hope he may still do what we want... :s
BTW... I FINALLY started reading that SPN novel that came out over the winter.. SO I shall be sending it to you as promised when I finish it!
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Post by mick on May 12, 2010 1:02:32 GMT 1
SO I shall be sending it to you as promised when I finish it!I had totally forgotten about that...thanks!!!!
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