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Post by Silwyna on Feb 10, 2008 1:35:25 GMT 1
Yep, they can be good at that.
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mick
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Post by mick on Feb 10, 2008 14:38:29 GMT 1
It's the classic case of heart vs. logic. Our brains may know something... doesn't mean our hearts accept it.
Do you know how many times in my life I have either thought this or said it?
I think with the John thing, as one of you said, it's a matter of perspective. John admitted to Dean IMTOD that Dean took care of both John and Sam. In "Something Wicked," remember the look he gave wee-Dean after that witch thing almost killed Sam? Even though the audience knows that John did love Dean, and he had little ways of showing it (selling his soull, for one), I tihnk a lifetime of being a soldier, being told to watch out for Sam, being forced to grow up too fast, may overshadow it. Dean may know it deep down inside, but there's too much other stuff that gets in the way. To this day, I can still have issues with how my mother acts towards my baby-sister and how she acts towards me, and I have to remind myself of the things she has done for me that do mean alot--and I had a fairly normal upbringing (no demons or evil to hunt!)
And Sam, as the youngest, probably saw John always going to Dean, trusting him ith hunts once he was older, trusting him to take care of Sam, and he may have felt left out, sort of. Like he didn't fit in with his brother or his father's life, and the fact that he always wanted something different ("normal").
Of course, I could be way off base, too! ;D
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Post by Silwyna on Feb 10, 2008 14:55:53 GMT 1
I completely agree with you Mick.
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yor
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Post by yor on Feb 10, 2008 15:19:04 GMT 1
Well said Mick...
My dad once told me, no matter how unfair it may look, you simply can't treat your children the same. They all have different needs.
For example, they constantly harped on my brother about his grades. I seriously did see it as them caring about him more. I finally asked them at dinner why they didn't harp on me or ask me how I was going. Mom said they were scared to. Dad continued, that I put so much stress on myself they didn't want to add more, whereas Mark was not self-motivated.
It takes a lot to see that kind of love.
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Post by yor on Feb 12, 2008 3:33:17 GMT 1
I love this woman's reviews. I wish my mind could think like this! Here's the link... supernatural.tv/reviews/s3reviews/dream.htmAnd here's a few of my favorite excerpts... Dean’s second dream was a brutal confrontation with things about himself of which he is ashamed and afraid. Nothing that his dream double said was new: we’d heard it all before from different mouths, from Sam in bitter moments throughout season one, especially Asylum and Scarecrow, from the Yellow-Eyed Demon speaking through John’s mouth in Devil’s Trap], and even from Dean himself speaking as a spirit in In My Time of Dying. What made it new and unexpected was the way in which Dean finally fought back, when his fury dismissed his bravado and let him openly acknowledge all the bitterness he was never able to voice, the ugliness that exists right alongside the love, and to rail against the unfairness that he’d accepted as his lot all his life. There was a catharsis in killing the part of himself that proclaimed his worthlessness, and standing alone and strong in a silence ringing of truth. That instant was therapeutic, and the benefit of it survived even the rising of the new fear that took away his hope of victory by asserting that, fair or not, deserved or not, he was still doomed to die and go to Hell and become what he most hated. He couldn’t admit any of that shameful vision to Sam, but it was that confrontation that finally let him reach out and tell Sam that he didn’t want to die and didn’t want to go to Hell – that he wanted to be saved and needed his brother’s help.
Dean’s dream confrontation with himself epitomizes what I most cherish about Supernatural: that it recognizes human complexity and doesn’t try to simplify it, and thus makes the Winchester brothers fully realized, human characters. Dean is noble, self-sacrificing, and generous – and he’s shallow, bitter, selfish, and resentful, all at the same time. He deeply loves, admires, and respects his father, and he’s simultaneously furious with him and hates him for failing his wife and his sons, for always putting Sammy first even while never being there for him, and for giving Dean responsibilities he should never have had to carry. He’s 29, and he’s 4. He’s grateful to be alive, and guilty about being alive. He’s self-confident, competent, and assured, and full of self-doubt, self-loathing, and uncertainties. He loves his brother more than life and can’t bear to think of living without him, and willingly gave up his own life to bring his brother back – but he doesn’t want to die, and he’s more afraid than he’s ever been in his entire life. And he’s Dean.I hadn't factored in how other's had pointed these things out in Dean's life... LOVED the credit she gives Sam... As to why Bobby and the boys woke up from Bobby’s dream even as Jeremy was swinging on Sam, while Dean was later unable to wake himself up from his own dream, I would suspect that Jeremy’s surprise at finding Sam wandering around in Bobby’s dream distracted him from keeping concentration on Bobby to prevent him from waking up. He was careful not to make the same mistake when he went up against the brothers the second time, at least not until Sam hit on the idea of distracting him by introducing his abusive father into the dream world. That was a superb piece of strategy on Sam’s part, because with Jeremy focused on keeping Sam helpless and bound, trying to go up against him directly – say, by thinking himself free of the ropes and armed – probably wouldn’t have worked, given that Jeremy was experienced at controlling the dream world and Sam wasn’t. Tapping into Jeremy’s own fears, on the other hand, disrupted his control because, at least for an instant, Jeremy was afraid and reacting instead of being in charge.
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Post by Silwyna on Feb 12, 2008 13:17:12 GMT 1
A fantastic analysis of the episode and characters. I can't really add anything to it. Except maybe that I wish I could express myself only half as good as she does.
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Post by mick on Feb 12, 2008 16:17:27 GMT 1
Thanks ofr that, yor. After reading that, all I could think is that Dean is a walking contradiction!
I do agree that his explosion at himself was a catharsis for him--things that he's kept bottled up his entire life. I hope now he can move on from this angst and get past it.
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Post by yor on Feb 13, 2008 1:52:31 GMT 1
A lot of us are contradictions... it's part of the human experience... Dean portrays it well..
And Silke, I agree... She's much like X in her ability to express things so well... I could never write an analysis that good.
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Post by Silwyna on Feb 13, 2008 13:23:40 GMT 1
I had to think about X too. Maybe we should try to make her a SPN fan as well, if only so that we can read her episode reviews LOL
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Post by yor on Sept 16, 2008 2:16:01 GMT 1
ok, perhaps I'm way slow on the uptake. I admit it. It is totally possible. I finally watched the extra with Kripke about this episode and I finally understand why they included Sam's smut dream in the whole thing. I hadn't gotten the analogy. Good natured Sam with slut dreams and slut Dean having wholesome dreams of family...
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Post by Silwyna on Sept 16, 2008 7:33:59 GMT 1
It's always the quiet ones ...
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Post by yannik on Sept 16, 2008 15:57:59 GMT 1
I finally watched the extra with Kripke about this episode and I finally understand why they included Sam's smut dream in the whole thing.
Please share! To me this dream seemed so out of nowhere...
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Post by yor on Sept 17, 2008 1:59:16 GMT 1
It's as I said above, it was to show the contrast in humans. The side we present tot he public and what's inside.
Sam is to the world, calm, mild mannered, a gentleman...He wanted the normal life, yet inside he dreams of sleezy sex. Dean is wilder, a womanizer to the world, but inside is really seeking a wife and family... stable family life.
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Post by yannik on Sept 17, 2008 6:57:03 GMT 1
Hm. I believe that in Dean, but Sam's "slutty" nature? Nah.
With Dean it was hinted at in the episode with Lisa. He did genuinely seem to want that boy to be his. Sam? What does it mean that he's really evil inside, or something? Or maybe I'm being judgemental...
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Post by yor on Sept 17, 2008 12:13:16 GMT 1
I'm just saying what Kripke said in the interview...
I don't think it means Sam is evil, just that he really does enjoy sex as much as Dean does, just not as outwardly. Sam keeps his sexual desires internal. Dean is more open about his.
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